New Year, New Thread

[golfman2315]

"But she did hug me and said that she understood that I"d gotten my hopes up and was maybe expecting something that she felt bad about."

Gotten your hopes up? Hell that was the plan for you to wait until after the weekend and then you would have your fun. Don't forget she is the one who changed all the plans not you.

It just seems like sometimes Sue likes to really push you hard by showing you what you can't have by boarding on dominant and now she has lately pushed more by saying this is what you wanted or chose. She also says the main reason she wants sex with Paul vs. you is because he can cum in her and you can't because of the condom. Ive said this many times that it seems like she would like you to give up your beta desire but She is not going to make you but her words to me sound like that is what she would like. That in no way means she want still see Paul it it just means that she can get more satisfaction from you as well.

Whether you cum in her or not she will still see Paul and dictate the interaction and I am sure it would be more and less the other times.

I know you guys have talked plenty but I don't ever recall any solid rules or lines that can't be crossed or broken and it seems like you two have been ok to wing it a little but I wonder if that approach might leave the door open to some misinterpretation of expectations?

Steve I am a fan of yours and Sues so please don't confuse my questions and interpretations as criticism because at the end of the day it's your lives. I and I believe many others here would hate to see things implode.

 

[raksdeer]

Well golfman, you articulated it precisely.

And yes, STB thanks indeed for making us a part of this intimate journey of yours. But it pains us to see your relationship going down the drain. Hopefully you understand our concern and not see it as intrusion upon you or casting aspersions on Sue. Hopefully, both of you steer the course right, before end up hurting each other.

 

[SquirmingSub]

Rak,

First off I would not have addressed your direct except for the fact that you mentioned me in a post in the form of a question. As I am sure you can imagine, we all have very different experiences over our respective life times. Some of us have had positive and negative experiences, some of us have been able to bring about a much more positive outlook then others.

I would never expect that you would ever agree with me and I would never attempt to sway you in any way. As far as Steve and Sue, unlike some on this forum, I have only attempted to be appreciative of Steve’s choice to continue to share his experience and feelings with us as a group via the way of this forum. I along with everyone here have seen warning signs although I have to admit that what some considered an issue I may not have and what I have considered an issue others may not have. So in some ways yes I have encouraged Steve to be true to his own desires, true to his own needs and to think everything through before doing or saying something that he would not be able to take back during his approach with Sue.

I can assure you that I would not have said anything in support of or from a negative view point if it was not for the fact that I have taken the journey from multiple perspectives over the last 20+ years myself. I have been the alpha husband of a HotWife, I have also been the beta husband of a HotWife with limited say in whom or when the wife enjoyed others, I have also had experience within the area of true Poly. I have also had a solid foundation of experience within a FLR which is the relationship model which I personally prefer.

You speak of equality, history will tell you that equality within a loving relationship is truly open to interpretation and what Steve and Sue consider equality may not be what you or I would consider equality. Equality and Balance within a relationship takes on many forms and what works for one couple does not always work for other couples and being flexible as a couple when you began to explore new areas within a relationship such as Steve and Sue have, this is an area in which they both need to learn more about each other, where their desires and needs take them individually and as a couple. Those couples that do not learn this skill tend to be looking at divorce when they hit the empty nester phase within a marriage, I can reference many statistics if you would like that would show the very high divorce rate at this age group. Steve and Sue has something special within their marriage and they have continued to grow as a couple.

What you seem to keep forgetting is that Steve took this step with Sue after they have had YEARS of various experiences with each other. Yes this has been a new experience for them both and it is something that they together will navigate through as a married couple.

So you think I have misguided principles and thoughts. I simply share my view points based on my own experiences (some bad, some good, most were healthy and rewarding) and I will continue to share those in areas such as this especially when it appears that others do not seem to understand that this is something that Steve himself requested of Sue and unfortunately once Pandora’s Box has been opened, you cannot always simply close it again without the resulting effects.

So Rak – how about you share with us what guides your viewpoint in this area, did you have a horrible experience within your own relationship which has colored your judgment in this area?

As to Peak most recent remarks, Peak is on point with the fact that Steve is now seeing what clearly could be a problem and only Steve can be the one to know if the events of this week was a problem or simply another attempt by Sue to push the boundary. It is good that Steve took the time to communicate the issue with Sue and ideally now they will come together to determine the next step on the movement forward or if this has reached a point where the chapter needs to close.

Squirmy, I don't think it helps to continue to see Steve in your mould and as if he himself didn't think he had a problem. We can all debate the gravitas of it in his mind but to brush it off is unrealistic.

Peak I can assure you that I do not believe Steve is anything like me nor do I believe that Steve could be open minded to be within the relationship model I have chosen for myself. What I would say to you and other is the same that I have said before, we all can see positives and negatives, good signs and warning signs. Steve is the only one that can determine what is a warning sign for him and what efforts Sue’s continued growth as a person impact the overall relationship that that two share together.

As I have said above, this is a point in most relationships were couple decide to remain married because of the great foundation they have together or they decide to divorce because they had grown apart over the years and was only staying together (empty nester syndrome) for the children.

So some would say that WE all could be doing arm to Steve by each of us sharing our respective viewpoints. I hope that you are correct and that both of them can do some fundamental talking today and steady the ship a bit. I for one believe that both should always continue to have honest and open discussion together.

While STB and Sue promised to each other that they will have serious discussions before doing anything sustentative, it seems that it is not the case anymore and if Squirm is to be believed than She need not discuss things with STB at all. Hopefully it doesn't goes the same way as the relationship that STB always wondered and fantasized about.

To clarify my position on the point Rak mentioned, it is not that I do not believe that Sue should not have been considerate of Steve’s feelings with regard to the change in schedule for the weekend. With that said, I do believe that Steve and Sue need to have some clarity on what is acceptable and not acceptable with the relationship. With some relationships of this type, it is not always the requirement of the wife to discuss in advance a change of this type although I can see where everyone here including Steve would take this as a warning sign. I would simply see it has an opportunity for a discussion between the two of them which should take place sooner than later.

I know you guys have talked plenty but I don't ever recall any solid rules or lines that can't be crossed or broken and it seems like you two have been ok to wing it a little but I wonder if that approach might leave the door open to some misinterpretation of expectations?

Golfman made a good point and I would agree that this can open the door to some misinterpretation of expectations. This gets back down to a possible communication issues on both of the parts of Steve and Sue. So yes, I do think the issue is that Sue and Steve need to have some clarity of sorts between themselves so that they both know and understand were each other stands and IF Steve has truly embraced being the BETA within the relationship and knowing that he previously made it clear that Sue’s sexual happiness was important to him, he would/should decide if he is truly OK with Sue’s desires when and where it comes to him and Paul respectively.

While I am not expecting that we will hear anything from Steve in the near future, I am sure that he will continue to share with the group once he and Sue have worked through some of there issues.

 

[SquirmingSub]

Well golfman, you articulated it precisely.

And yes, STB thanks indeed for making us a part of this intimate journey of yours. But it pains us to see your relationship going down the drain. Hopefully you understand our concern and not see it as intrusion upon you or casting aspersions on Sue. Hopefully, both of you steer the course right, before end up hurting each other.

Here is something that Rak and I both on as we both agree that “golfman” clearly articulated it precisely on post #101. Which in many ways also confirms what I have said in the past, Sue has continued pushing the boundaries with Steve and at times made to clear that Steve did ask for this. Only Steve knows if this is really what he asked for and truly wanted from this overall experience. Golfman may indeed be correct, Sue will not ask Steve to return to his Alpha side (giving up his beta desires) and she has given Steve many opportunities to transition back to the Alpha Husband of a HotWife. Golfman was also right about another issue, just as Golfman, I don't ever recall any solid rules or lines that were put forth that can't be crossed or broken by either Sue or Steve. So with that said, I would agree that this can open the door to some misinterpretation of expectations.

As Rak stated and I am sure we can all agree that we are all hopeful that both (Steve & Sue) can steer the course in a way that works for both of them before they end up hurting each other.

 

[raksdeer]

Dying to hear from STB!!!

 

[peakmb]

Steve,
There are no doubt many who are hoping for you to update us on the events of this weekend, of course I am one of them. This may well have been a somewhat difficult few days at times, it is the first time I can recall that you have dug in and refused Sue her way in a sexual matter, made even more difficult because Paul must have become aware of the change in plans and probably the change in atmosphere. I truly hope you both have emerged from it more together than when it started.
I would however urge you not post in detail about what was said and agreed until you are sure and settled in your own mind it where you want to go and you can clearly state it. Your posting here is a gift and a privilege to all of us and whether you at times are looking for validation, amusement, support or simply to get some things off your chest, right now you may need the support a little more, and that is best given to what you clearly want (as opposed to desire). To what your marriage, your head and your heart want to see. Whatever it is.

 

[SoonToBe]

Rather than trying to answer everyone's questions and thoughts, I thought I would first start out by correcting Raks and other comments about our relationship going down the drain. I think if that were the case, then the discussions we had yesterday wouldn't have happened. And I think that's where I would continue to correct everyone - while this is a rough spot in the road, it's just our sexual interaction that's in the air right now and after talking with her yesterday for a long time, that part is very clear - that it is just our sexual interaction that we need to get more synchronized on, but there is no lack of love or concern for either of us on either of our parts.

Yes, Paul did come by on Saturday and while that did annoy me, I also knew that it would help her (and I) to have that out of the way. She did cancel on Wednesday and to be honest, I should have seen all this coming at that point.

But why belabor the point. Our discussion really did circle around what I wanted. I did like what one reply said that I didn't want to be the beta-emotionally, just sexually. I used that with her and that along with what I'd said earlier, seemed to ring true for her and I do believe she felt genuine remorse for what had happened and that she admitted she hadn't been thinking about how I'd feel about the change in plans, she was more thinking about how she'd hoped I'd have responded about what she thought would be something fun for us on Saturday - namely that she thought that I could have maybe been a part of them together (unlike when we were away) and that she hoped I would be there to enjoy being with her just after Paul had finished, again, in her mind making up for what she'd put me through while we were away. I know that sounded like a bit of a cover-story that she came up with after probably realizing what she'd started - but it was good to hear that she did want to make it something directed towards me and that after Paul had left, that we'd then have time together.

I admit that when I went out and intentionally left them alone, that it was good for me to get some air and that maybe it was better for me to not be there to be with them after all. As we talked yesterday I told her that and said that maybe it was better for me after the prior weekend to not be there and she agreed and that was a part of what we talked about.

So - the real part of our discussion really revolves around the questions that some here had also posted. Indeed, Saturday night when I came home we started to talk. I knew Paul had just left within the past hour and I told her that it had taken a lot for me to not feel betrayed and forgotten about in he wanting him to come over when I thought we would be having the night to ourselves. She asked me in return if it didn't turn me on that she was all "wet and warm" and that she wanted to share that with me? I told her just what I'd said - about how it made me feel emotionally when I thought she'd wanted the night for us and all of that stuff. After we got through the apologies and all of that I guess I sort of understood what she was thinking and I told her that it did turn me on that I knew how she was beneath her robe and pj's. And I even admit to almost wanting to say the heck with the discussion and to let me just have her, but I also knew that I'd made a stink earlier and she knew that we needed to talk.

She asked me what I wanted and I told her that before I answered that, that I wanted to know what she really wanted. And I asked her, did she want me to stop wanting to be the beta and to resume having "normal relations" with her. She was quiet for a bit and then she said she'd tell me but only after I answered one question first. I told her that wasn't fair but she asked anyway - she asked me whether I had enjoyed last weekend (away skiing) or not. I told her that wasn't really what we were talking about but she said that she needed to hear my answer first. I told her that it was exciting and that yes, I'd enjoyed it in a perverse way. Before she answered she asked me "how many times did you cum?" and I answered her 4 times before I even realized that she'd asked me a second question. But she smiled and said "that's what I thought" and she looked at me and said "how can that be so good for and we are now here talking about this?" And before I could say anything she looked at me and said "no, I don't want you to".

We were both quiet for a moment and she added "you asked about 'normal relations' between us". And a moment later she looked at me and said "well...? what about you? do you want to go back?". Before I could answer she added "I want this to be good for you and something you want". It took me a moment to get it out but I finally told her that it was good for me but that at times I felt that maybe it was more difficult on me emotionally and I told her that when we don't have the sex together, that I think I maybe seem to put more emphasis or importance on the non-sexual stuff. She blushed and glowed at that and I think there was even a tear in her eye at that as she said that she'd never meant to hurt me with any of this and that as we talked she realized how it might have seemed. She looked at me and said that "had I realized this, I never would have had Paul come over".

Now this is going to sound crazy but I told her that I was glad he had come by. She didn't know what I was saying until she looked up at me and saw what she said later was a "look in your eye" and she realized that right then, what was more important than talking was for her to share herself with me, and she said to me when we continued talking yesterday, that she "really wanted me". When we talked more on Sunday she said that she had considered telling me to cum in her and that she thought that might be what I needed, but then she saw that look on my face and she said that she realized what I would like even more.

She patted the bed next to her and asked if we could have some fun first or whether I wanted to continue talking. We talked more yesterday about everything but at that point when I got into bed next to her, my angst seemed to disappear and instead, be replaced by arousal at finally having her to myself. We lay back against the bed and I have to say, whether it was from my being upset or whatever, there really felt like some true passion between us as we kissed and she responded. I know I felt really horny as we kissed and I pushed her robe open and pushed her top out of the way revealing her breasts. They felt so warm and her nipples were so hard already. It all happened pretty quickly and furtively once I got her clothes off. Unlike some times after she's been with Paul, nothing was off-limits and not only did she encourage me to go down on her, she encouraged me to do whatever I liked. As I began to lick at her she teased me, gently though, and asked me if I'd wanted to have done this when we were away skiing. She didn't want an answer but she knew from how I moaned and grunted - as well as how hard my cock was - that it was turning me on.

I know that some reading this will be saying again that I caved. But the reality was that I was still really horny and after feeling how intimate and serious she had taken some of what we'd talked about, seeing, feeling and now tasting her body, I went for it. It seemed like forever since she'd offered herself to me and I have to say that as I enjoyed going down on her and feeling how warm and sexy she was I had second thoughts that maybe she'd wanted to share herself like this with me after all. I can't explain how good it felt to be tasting Paul's cum in her, it's going to sound crazy but as she moved closer to orgasm with my fingers and tongue, and tasting more of Paul's semen - I can't explain it but what I really felt was validation on wanting him to cum in her. The more she relaxed and let herself go under my attentions, the more I could feel how she must have felt with him making love to her. I felt her start to flutter and softly thrust upwards at my tongue and all I can say is that I know my cock got hugely hard and I am being honest here when I say that I felt the most intense urge to put a condom on and push into her. I can't really explain it but feeling and tasting how soft and swollen and oozing she was - I guess I really do want to be the beta because at that moment and even now I still feel it - that I want that to just be something she feels from him.

And yet, at the same time, I guess the reality is that I need her behaviors surrounding that to be different - supportive for me and not put second to him. We started to talk more about this yesterday during the day - long before we got into bed and had sex again last night - and I think she understands a bit more now. But hopefully more about that later this afternoon.

 

[raksdeer]

Sorry to say so STB, but you got lured in too easily. Not to put you or Sue down, her statement that "there was even a tear in her eye at that as she said that she'd never meant to hurt me with any of this and that as we talked she realized how it might have seemed. She looked at me and said that "had I realized this, I never would have had Paul come over" is a real farce. She brought him in despite your disagreement. You went out and she had him. If her intention was to include you, why did she let you get away? Or why did she play even with Paul? No STB, that was for your ears only. A flimsy excuse for her actions and you took that hook, line and sinker. She had known all along that doing so would hurt you and was not for your benefit. This was not accidental or that she never meant to hurt you. She did and she got away with it. Kudos to her and whosoever is coaching her. I had hoped much against hope that you'd discuss your relationship with her, but your own state of arousal got better of you. Anyway best of luck for your future which doesn't seems very bright to me.

In fact is if she would have pushed you a little, you might have ended up apologizing to her,

 

[peakmb]

Raks,
It's a bit early for judgement, particularly if some is directed at Steve's previously agreed aims. He threw up his objection after Sue had agreed with him that Paul could come over on Saturday. Maybe she could and should have cancelled that but she toned it down instead. Her real contrition will be seen from now on in her actions and interactions with Steve. That may be time to get the guns out. Not now though.

 

[SquirmingSub]

Steve,

As always it is good to read your post along with seeing that you and Sue have continued to have much more in-depth conversations about the various topics. It is good that Sue now understands what issues concern you and or resulted in hurt feelings. Now that Sue has a better understanding of how and what you have been feeling everything between the two or three of you should go a bit smoother. I am sure that all of us will continue to follow your post and hopefully we all will reserve judgment.

 

[SoonToBe]

Nice to see some calmer voices.

So - our discussion yesterday really got into what I was feeling and what I wanted and what she was feeling and what she wanted. She said that she was confused in some ways before our talk on Saturday - that she wasn't separating things in her head - that it was all just the same and hadn't really been thinking of how I was feeling emotionally vs. sexual-arousally.

I'm not sure how to shorten what seems like hours of talking down to fit on a short post here - but I can say that she openly admitted that she is enjoying sex more with Paul than with me - and she again asked me "isn't that what you said you wanted?". It was hard to answer her in any way other than yes because I do still feel that arousal at wanting that. I told her that it wasn't as cut-and-dried as that and that there was still an overlap in things and that while I am still incredibly intoxicated at what she is doing, that I now see an overlap in there in a way I hadn't anticipated and clearly neither did she. She asked me again if I'd really enjoyed myself when we were away skiing and I told her that while some of it had hurt in a way to hear and see - on the other hand I came away from it feeling good and certainly satisfied - and then I said it - that I didn't feel threatened by it. She liked that and again asked me how many times I'd masturbated and when I said 4 times she smiled and said that after I'd enjoyed it that much, that she didn't understand why, when I got upset about Paul coming over, she didn't understand why. That is until I told her that I knew I wasn't having sex with her when we were away and I had no reason to want to wait for her. But when she said we'd have the weekend together, that I found myself wanting to wait to be with her. She smiled at me and said she loved hearing that but she also said that I shouldn't put such pressure on myself or on needing to feel that I have to wait for her if I didn't want to. And in return I told her that I would still prefer to wait to make love with her with a condom on than to masturbate and not have the same level of desire for her.

She blushed at that and said that it really made her feel wonderful to hear that I want her like that - and that she seemed to genuinely realize that it was her saying it'd be our weekend and not my cuckold-desires making me hold out in hopes for some time with her that was the difference. As we talked she continued to tell me that she wanted me to do just as I'd done when we were away - that she loved knowing I was masturbating at being excited about what she was doing with Paul. I told her that I had truly started to do just that - and I told her that was why this seemed to hurt even more, that it was a time when I'd started to look forward to sharing with her only to be diverted away.

She said that she really did understand and that it made her feel even worse now that she understood how much of a yo-yo I must have felt like and that she realized that even though I was as horny as I was and that it was as fun as it was the night before, that as we talked on Sunday she told me that now that she understood what I was saying that she agreed it wasn't what she'd wanted.

I know however that the rest of what I'm going to share will cause Raks and others to again wrankle their feathers and profess doom and gloom.

Our conversation went back to what I wanted and she asked me what I thought was going to happen when the only one she's really making-love with is Paul and not me. And as I answered she came out and said it again, that she would actually prefer to have sex with Paul rather than me - and it's not just that he's the one cumming in her (although she says that weighs heavily on her arousal), but that she feels she responds more to him and that she feels more in touch and comfortable with him sexually. But she looked at me and again asked me what I thought was going to happen over time based on what I'd told her - and she looked at me and said "you did say you wanted me to look to him when I wanted sex, right?" and when I said yes she told me that it wouldn't be possible for her to not feel anything more for him either in terms of desire - be it physical or emotional.

She must have seen my look change when she said that and she just said "oh don't be all worried, I don't love him or anything like that..... but I do love his cock these days....." and a second later said "I'm sorry, but it's been a long time now baby since you know, since you've cum in me and I think I just want him more right now". But again she asked me "isn't this what you wanted?" and "what did you think would happen?". It wasn't easy to sit there with my wife and look her in the eye and tell her that I liked her being sexually satisfied by her lover instead of me - but at the same time - I couldn't lie to her if that was the truth. And it was. When I felt it Saturday night - I knew that it is still what I ultimately want - that like this past weekend, that sex with me isn't first on her list (but when it is on the list - that she honor the list).

We hugged and talked for a while and she said that this wasn't easy for her to talk to me about either but that now in over 2 years of time dealing with me on this stuff, that she thought she knew what I'd wanted and that she said it hurt that she'd missed this emotional thing with me but that she thought she knew that what I wanted was the truth and that she at first felt like my being upset was conflicting with all of that but now that she understood she said that she wanted me to know a few things. One was that she loved me and no matter what that love would always come above everything we were doing. I didn't ask her to explain it further as just as she believes she knows me, I believe I know her to be telling me the truth. But after that the things she said were very much from her side. She said that she has come to understand me a lot more - and now - even more - and that she's also come to know what she is feeling. She told me that while she does miss the physical intimacy we shared, that she now accepts that - at least for now - that we both want to feel her enjoying that with Paul.

She said that it's not that this isn't going to change things between us and she admitted that when I first came to her with my desires, that she too feared changing how she felt about me - but again she's said that now almost 2 years since my beta admission to her - that she's accepted that she enjoys sex very much and even more with Paul than with me and she used the word "compartmentalized" (which I know she got somewhere off the web) when she said how she's separated her sexual desire from me now. She made it clear that this is something she feels right now and she even joked in a cold way that she gets wet for Paul now but that it takes a lot for her to feel herself get wet for me sexually. I told her that I wanted to hear it even if it hurt and she said came out and said it - that right now she genuinely does not want me to cum in her and that she admits that she feels less desire for me for her own needs - but she recognizes that I still need to feel her physically and she understands that - and while she said that she doesn't necessarily feel sexually aroused when it comes to wanting sex with me - when she thinks about it as something for us, she said that she never questions that it's something we need.

I know I had this forlorn look as she told me that - she came out and said I looked like a deer caught in the headlights and again asked me if this wasn't what I'd wanted - and she joked "you know, for what's between my shoulders to be for you and what's between my legs to be for Paul?".

Ugh - that's it for time for me - 3:45 and I have a 4pm call I need to prep for.

More to tell for sure - not near the end yet. NOt sure if I did a good or bad job recapping here, haven't even read what I'd written over the past hour or two on and off.

 

[peakmb]

Steve,
Your analysis continues to have an emotional discontinuity in it, which may reflect your personality at the moment. It's easy to talk about splitting your roles between people or 'compartmentalising' in some way but of course we are single entities and however much we think we can split ourselves, we blur at the artificial edges we create and these themselves are never uniform.

Sue is being disingenuous in saying that she prefers sex (were her words 'making love'?) with Paul and clearly little passionate desire for you whilst at the same time saying she no love for him and the same love for you. English is not enough here. Other languages have several words for love. Love for parents, love for children, love for friends even, love for your spouse (affection), and the passionate, insane love for a lover. I think it's clear that Sue is currently lacking the latter for you but has it for Paul. To me, this is dangerous ground and one of the reasons why so many cuckold relationships put time limits on outside partnerships. They can so easily erode the main one and leave it a hollow shell unless clear agreed boundaries are in place. The way your relationship with Sue has evolved, there are no boundaries and I'm afraid you have shown yourself incapable of negotiating them or in any way policing them. This has also been very new to Sue who may just lack the experience to do anything about it either. The point is, not only does it mean that you can get very close to the rocks but it also means you probably won't know you are close to them until you hit one, as you did this weekend. You didn't see it coming and neither did Sue it seems. You because you want to just let it happen, rudderless and blindly trusting, thinking you know Sue's mind and Sue blindly clinging on, equally rudderless but passionately attached to another man suddenly frightened maybe by feeling so little for her old one.

It is all what you both said you wanted to feel BUT I am sure that when you looked towards it and said that you both thought that all of the core emotional bond and at least some of the passion bond would still be in place. The cold reality is that on the evidence you have relayed to date, it isn't. The emotional bond is damaged and the passion bond (at least on Sue's side) is all but extinguished.

Over the years I have urged you to sit down and really think about what you want. NOT at a time when Sue is dangling any sort of sex in front of you or teasing you about it. You have shown yourself again and again to be incapable of thinking straight at these times and really only your mutual love in the past has automatically course corrected you. Reset has not only been capable of being pressed but it has been.

Steve, you need to think everything about this last fortnight through, not from a sexual excitement point of view but from an emotional and practical one. All of this may still be what you want but it is coming at a price elsewhere that you are both blindly missing because you're not looking. Your two posts so far are a good example. You recollect what was said but not really how it fits into everything else because you still haven't taken the time (or got your head into the right space yet) to think about it.

Make no mistake here. I am on yours and Sue's side here. If this direction is really the way in which you both want to go, same direction, same speed, then great. I could do nothing but support you. I just feel that I also need to warn you that you are missing so much else that is happening too and you need to recognise and agree that too.

I would say this finally, and I know you don't believe it is even remotely likely but seriously ask yourself this question. If Sue shares her feelings about what happened this weekend with Paul and he says, 'Move in with me for a few months, while your children are still away, see how you feel about it all then,' what would Sue say?
No, never and I think we should cool it for a while?
I couldn't, it would destroy Steve and I can't do that to him?
I've never spent that much time away from Steve before but it might be exciting for both of us?
It's too soon, ask me again in another three months?
You continue to think that Paul is benign but if Sue has feelings for him, he has some feelings for her and he may interpret this week as Sue hurting and his chance to step up.

Being submissive does not mean being stupid or wilfully blind about the future. Get a strategy agreed between you, get some boundaries, red flag zones, time out periods. Extended periods (not just a few days) of just the two of you, even if you don't have sex. Reconnect. You both need it.

 

[raksdeer]

The truth is out. And you asked her once if she wanted you....do you still remember what she said. Isn't there a discrepancy between what she said then and what she said now.

And she says she does miss physical intimacy with you. How the hell one misses what one does not wants?

So all this is a wordplay and nothing more. It seems you have ventured far into wilderness and yet you don't know. When it's over with Paul (if ever it is and if she is telling you the truth that she does not loves him..although she has given you enough reasons to doubt that) will you be able to go back to normal relationship? Will she ever want you again ? I think the answers seem to be clear.

I know that for you, I am an outsider, a nobody who is trying to put your relationship with Sue in bad light. Believe me, I do not. If anything, I do want happiness for both of you and when I see that both of you are moving in just the opposite direction, I do like to post here and comment on whatever you have said. With that said, it's your life and your wife. Live it or lose it, the choice is yours.

And again I am sorry to say this but when Paul is between her legs, he does have a hold on what she has between her shoulders as well. So even that is not true.

 

[Knk069]

Steve, Thank you for the updates. I am glad to see you and Sue talking this out. I have my doubts about her saying she is not in love with Paul. Her actions say otherwise. She is saying a lot to keep you in the same position you are in. The constant "isn't it what you wanted" sounds like a way to avoid taking responsibility for her actions. Just my take.

A very telling thing about who she loves will be what she does over the next week. If she goes to see Paul Wednesday and/or next weekend it is clear that that is where her heart is. If it is with you, she will take some time to continue working on your relationship like you have for the past couple days.

I really think the best thing for the two of you is for her to temporarily tap the brakes on her love affair with Paul (Yes, that is what it is from the view of an outsider) and give you the weeek/weekend to reconnect. You two agreed to that every 5 or 6 weeks (I think) but never did implement.

 

[golfman2315]

Steve,
Being submissive does not mean being stupid or wilfully blind about the future. Get a strategy agreed between you, get some boundaries, red flag zones, time out periods. Extended periods (not just a few days) of just the two of you, even if you don't have sex. Reconnect. You both need it.

Peak is offering excellent advice here.

Steve I would never post a thing here except that when I read your words you say things a certain way but then when you openly start to talk with Sue about them you more often then not just say yes to her questioning you back and seem to give in.

I read the words you write as a guy who wants his wife to first be sexually satisfied extremely well by her lover and secondarily by you but you would like to share in it with her by being able to orally and sexually please her and have sex with her but with a condom on and most importantly have an incridible emotional bond. This allows you to have her but not all of her and less than her lover gets and that she gets to decide when you are allowed. In the past your fire was fueled many times by others having some of the first while you waited.

Sue sounds like she plans to take this down a much deeper hole because when shes "I thought this is what you wanted" and you often just nod and say yes. If all you want is the occasional pity fuck, blow job and teasing while you jerk off then by all means do that but by my read comprehension that is not what I am hearing you say. If this is not what you want then stand up and say so. Hell there aren't much harder conversations in life than asking your wife to fuck other guys so no reason to go silent now if you want things to go differently.

Now I have been accused of reading to much into things before so this wouldn't be the first time I have misread a situation. I appreciate you sharing this journey with us because you obviously don't have to and I mean you no harm by my comments.

Last thing I will say is that I really think you and Sue really need to have some good alone time together to reconnect and above all I think it is time for that to include you taking your wife bare again if only for a day or a weekend. It just seems like things need a reset.

As always best of luck.

 

[raksdeer]

Good advise as usual by everyone. Everyone is saying here STB that you need to reconnect. Byt the question is how will you because she doesn't wants it and you too don't want her to.

 

[SquirmingSub]

Steve,

As I and other have previously stated, it is about honest and open communication as well as knowing what the best way for you and Sue to have times for re-connection. Again thank you for your continued sharing with the group.

 

[golfman2315]

"Before she answered she asked me "how many times did you cum?" and I answered her 4 times before I even realized that she'd asked me a second question. But she smiled and said "that's what I thought" and she looked at me and said "how can that be so good for and we are now here talking about this?"

Steve this somehow got omitted from my previous post. It sounds like Sue thinks because you masterbated thinking about them and came for times that that made it all good for you. Did that make it all good for you? Was that enough to satisfy your desires?

I think the big issue might be the definition or level of Beta you want and she wants or thinks you want. Just like there are many levels of being a cuckold I have to assume the same for being beta. If you are allowing her to be satisfied first and primarily by Paul then by definition you are in the Beta position but there are no hard and fast rules that have to be followed as to you and her involvement. The key thing is what works for you.

 

[SquirmingSub]

I think the big issue might be the definition or level of Beta you want and she wants or thinks you want. Just like there are many levels of being a cuckold I have to assume the same for being beta. If you are allowing her to be satisfied first and primarily by Paul then by definition you are in the Beta position but there are no hard and fast rules that have to be followed as to you and her involvement. The key thing is what works for you.

Steve,

Golfman has made a very good point here. This is were honest and open communication between you and Sue comes in. Have you two actually had this discussion and if not, you two really should have it soon.

 

[peakmb]

Have to agreed with them both Steve. Just try not to have the discussion when Sue is lying naked next to you while you're masturbating for her on Wednesday night. It would kinda miss the point really.