New Year, New Thread

[dutch12]

Forgotten is her promise to reconnect physical at the end of October. Sorry to say but I think Sue is a very capricious woman. A deal is a deal. The passing away of her father should/could have deferred your mutual agreement for some weeks, not for half a year as probably is going to happen now. She is winding you around her small finger time after time. Whatever she proposes to you, your answer is never "no" nor "yes but..".
Of course it is hot for you (and even some of us) mindplaying with all what is and will be happening.
Question: are you really happy to only masturbate on pictures of them, burned in in your mind. Or by giving her a show on Wednesdays?
Ever thought of making out and fucking another woman to have real sex? Or is a cuckold or beta not allowed to?

 

[peakmb]

Steve, looking back over the last couple of years there has been an almost inevitable transition to where you are today. At each step the narrative has been the same. Sue suggests something. You say you would never do it, or do it for long. Sue persuades you, usually on Wednesday night. You agree, then suddenly it becomes something that excites you tremendously and becomes part of Sue's teasing of you again on Wednesdays.
Now, we are here again. Sue starts by saying SHE wants the reconnection before the end of October. You say you need it
Sue now downgrades it some connection, maybe. Maybe a blow job. Maybe less. You add that you would forego even this if it makes her happy.
There is example after example of exactly this pattern. In the middle of each there is always a crucial evening where you say, "what exactly do you want to happen" at some point in the future. Sue never answers, but always asks you to answer the question first. At that point you then always defer and give her what you think she wants. Sue takes it and makes it sound like your idea. It always starts as a trial, then becomes the norm, then Sue asks for more. The cycle starts again.
If a reader starts following this within one cycle or two, it is maybe exciting but now the pattern is so familiar there is really no point following it. Every barrier will go. With no logical reason, physical or mental. The story in now a marriage fraying at its logical edges. In any other context you would be diagnosed with Stockholm Syndrome. The desire to please your captor so strong that you accept as normal poor treatment that only gets worse.
In reality, if this continues, your marriage can really only end one way. With Sue walking away from the empty husk of the man that used to be into the arms of an alpha who she also finds she can love. I don't think I want to read that.

 

[Curt Bruch]

Steve, I retrieved your first post when you first introduced yourself and told us that you had been, "lurking here and elsewhere for ages, living in fantasy of my wife finally giving in to the desires she denies herself as well as fulfilling my wishes too." You went onto to tells us that from Day 1 it was Sue that made the suggestion of a gift for your 50th birthday that you can use her body as you see fit and, if what you wanted it so, that, "You can finally live out your wildest fantasy - if you want another guy to fuck me - just make sure he's healthy if he's going to cum in me".

In that post it was exactly as Peak says, it was Sue that made the suggestion of her doing something for you when in reality it is all about her and what she wants to do. It has been ever thus throughout this saga and, like Peak, I am fearful that it will end up with you being totally discarded.

I was surprised when her Dad passed away that we didn't hear you report that she had turned to Paul for emotional support just so she could turn the screw a little more on her being the Alpha to your playing the Beta role.

She has now floated the idea of extending the "no sex" well beyond the end of October to some undefined date. It will not be long before it is accepted that is what will happen and it will presented as having been your idea. She will then be looking to extend the denial to the next level but making sure that following her subtle hints it will have be regarded as having been your suggestion and something that "you wanted".

Be very careful with how this is progressing for I can foresee that it will not be long before you will be evicted from the house and having to engage any contact with Sue by text or cellphone from the comfort of a local motel room where you will have been despatched .. and it will be "your suggestion."

Just sayin'.

 

[Pnisnvnh]

Steve, there is some truth to what Curt is saying but my opinion is you wanted to be a beta cuckold and now you are. I don't think Sue will leave you for Paul or any other. What I see is that a beta cuckold is not what Sue wants to be with sexually, she likes a more dominant alpha male that takes her and owns her and that's not you now. She does enjoy being your dom HW and enjoys seeing you get off on it but when it comes to her sexual pleasure an alpha type is what gets her off. As she has said, you can have me back when you want to be an alpha again but as long as you want to be a beta I'm going to only be fucking alphas and not you (not her exact words but it's what you get when you read between the lines). Also I know you think Paul is just being a guy that thinks he's got this sexy wife he gets to have sex with but I think he knows all about couples that are into the HW/cuckolding sex life and bet he's been with other HW/cuckold couples in the past. You keep thinking that Sue been getting her guidance from people on line or in chats and I think she's getting most of it from Paul. Paul I think is just playing dumb around you so you don't think he's influencing the situation but letting you think it's just Sue and you doing it. Honestly K and I had an agreement after her first alpha that the longest she will be with a guy is 3-4 months and then she finds a new one. This gives her time to learn and enjoy him but limits the emotional bond and keeps it just sexual. K admitted after her first LTR that he was with other couples like us and that he helped guide her with us and our desires. She also admitted that after a year with him she couldn't even think about being sexual with me and all her sexual thoughts where about him. Sue now after 2+ yrs has totally bonded with him and my opinion is to be safe for yourself you should make an agreement. Tell her you like what your doing which is the truth and then say you will go longer maybe even to spring being sex free with her as long as at the end she ends it with Paul and finds a new alpha. Her reaction to you asking for that will let you know how deep she's into him or if she just sees him as a fuck buddy. If she says yes to it then great for you, if she goes with a no or a maybe then you may be in trouble. One thing I learned in being in a 20+ Yr HW/cuckold relationship is maybe's or "let's talk about that later" really means no and that she not going to say no to that idea until she thinks your ready for it. Just my 2 cents.

 

[raksdeer]

Good to read some sane advices. And thankfully, none are coming from me because if they were, Squirm and others, including STB would have poo-poohed it. Sue has already quit. She has not left yet. And as far as her promises go, hats off to STB for believing them.

 

[SquirmingSub]

There has been some great “sane” advise on this thread as "Rak" has pointed out. Many of the responses have provided view points from varying perspectives with constructive assessments. While many of us have made our assessments known; I do also believe that most of us are concerned about the direction of the overall direction that their relationship is going. Over the years Steve seems to have listened to many of the viewpoints that have been shared throughout the years and he has acknowledged the ones that have been constructive as well as the ones that have not been so constructive.

What we all should consider is what Steve has been saying throughout the last couple of years; Steve has been very open with us about what his stated desires have been and currently are. Statistically speaking, every relationship continues to evolve and many marriage end in divorce during the empty-Nester phase for a range of reasons. Many of those marriages end as a result of lack of communication, spiritual direction, emotional disconnect, affairs, and simply forgetting what brought the couple together to begin with. So many couples assume the role as parents and forget to remain friends. In my opinion, every couple with a solid foundation should have open honest judgment free communication, be their own best-friends and continue to develop their intimacy as a couple outside of the bedroom as well as inside the bedroom where applicable.

As a couple Steve and Sue have found a sexual dynamic that works for both of them as a couple as they transition into this new chapter/phase. As another poster pointed out, Sue married an Alpha, now she is married to a beta in transition. This is a relationship dynamic which has been a slow steady progression, not simply something that has happened overnight. As the poster also pointed out, not ever woman will find a beta man sexual attractive, as these women feel the need to be with a sexual alpha. Some woman can truly appreciate a beta man in many other way and if they (Steve and Sue) have a strong foundation this can prove to be a workable dynamic for them. As far as Sue, we are only able to read what Steve has shared with us all. Those of us that have decades of experience within the lifestyle (many of which have provided their assessments here), can draw many conclusions about Sue's motivations.

I have to say that I agree with "Pnisnvnh" as it relates to his assessment on Paul. "You keep thinking that Sue been getting her guidance from people on line or in chats and I think she's getting most of it from Paul. Paul I think is just playing dumb around you so you don't think he's influencing the situation but letting you think it's just Sue and you doing it." I have wondered the same myself about Paul as he could truly have extended experience in this area of the lifestyle and who knows, he could also be reading each and every one of these post himself just as many of us do. Alpha men do come in many forms with some being a bit more subtle than others as it relates to this lifestyle variation. I have said in the past that this is looking more like a Poly with a Cuckold twist, I say this because what Steve describes between Sue and Paul is more resembling that if passionate lovers, not simply Friend with Benefits (FwB) or the regular fuck-buddy for sexual interaction only.

As always, with caution I wish Steve the best and if he truly enjoys the beta side of the relationship he will need to full embrace it. If Steve would like to be the alpha again, Sue has made it clear on how to re-approach being the alpha although she has also made it clear that she likely will always desire to have another man involved moving forward.

 

[Guhunkadorn]

IMHO Sue would never leave STB....they've built too much of a life together and their communications and interactions seem frequent and meaningful and alienation seems nonexistent..............okay, now having said that I wonder STB if you check her cell phone usage log?....if she and Paul text around 10 or fewer messages a day then no biggie......if they text a few dozen or more messages a day then 'Houston we have a problem'...I would check the call/text log to see frequency of communications between them....in fact I'd be surprised if you haven't all ready done that.

Until something is revealed though...I'm thinking this is a hot story about an evolving mutually beneficial cuckold relationship.

I am interested to go back and read the thread on Sue's relationship with Robert.

Good luck moving forward STB.

 

[Enigma632]

I think that Pnisnvnh is very close to the truth, but in fact I think that Steve and Sue are mutually enforcing their directions with the "it's what you wanted" phrase which seems to push them both a bit further along the path.

It's almost as if they have been (unknowingly) conditioning / training themselves - Steve to be more beta and Sue to be more alpha and to make Steve more beta.

I'll echo some of what Curt Brunch said, be careful because if this conditioning continues for another six months you may not be able to get out of it without professional help and I mean both Steve and Sue.
Some of the angst and fear that you are feeling is your sub-conscious trying to warn you.

At the moment Steve could probably "regrow a set" and go back to being an alpha but by next spring I doubt that it'll be possible.

What you do is of course up to you, all I'll say is be aware of what you are truly doing to yourselves and be careful.

 

[tegelad]

I will reiterate fantastic advice from everyone. If you feel comfortable, when in your down time with your wife, talk to her about the advice that has been given. Maybe she will share since friends are supposed to be "honest". Also, you will need to look into your male soul at this point and ask what you want masturbation with being a beta, or if you want to be an alpha you may need to at some point "cut off" masturbation to get your alpha game on. Others may suggest chastity which is an option, to help you when you can't help yourself, but like I stated ... she wants you to be more Alpha then Paul ... It gets her off and she seems to like to be taken.

I have seen this kind of woman from my "university" days, they want and need an alpha as much as possible, and yet feel they are an alpha only to try to the raise the bar of the men around them to feel taken.

If you want to push the alpha button, make note how much and often Paul takes her. Then you need to work on making yourself manly again ... if that is what you want. I do think you need to live in beta land and I think you should take this chance to see how low you can go since this is your one opportunity to make it happen. You may not get this chance again, and with her family member passing your wife may realize that also.

 

[SoonToBe]

I have read and re-read the last few posts and they all ring true in many ways. From the first time I brought it up with Sue about bringing another guy into bed with us she admitted she was interested. And I know that while she said it was just a phase, I know she was enjoying herself immensely with a number of different guys (at separate times mostly) when we first met, so I am not surprised that she has developed her own desires and now, isn't afraid to want to experience them.

I know that i had long said that I couldn't do this or I couldn't do that, but the reality at every point along the way - whether it was the things we did or didn't do together - each time when I allowed myself to relax about it and let myself experience it, it became something very pleasurable for both of us. I find myself right now truly wanting to experience her wanting Paul as she says she wants to. It is scary to me when I think about it, but at the same time, as she's said - she loves me no matter what and that surely after all this time, it just feels to me like it is something that was a deepest darkest thought that can perhaps now see the light of day.

When I think back, I know that even that first time watching her with Brad, that despite the wrenching in my stomach, that it was still something I very much wanted her to do. The things that Don pushed for did push me at times, but at the same time, some of the memories of feeling her wanting him were so arousing to me back then that I don't think I understood them.

I truly liked how it was when she was fucking Frank. I wished that could have continued as I felt very much like I do about Paul. There is just something so arousing to me that she feels so comfortable with him that she can share most anything with him. I know that began with Frank and I'm glad that it did. I know that i felt new things with him especially when she went away with him. But again there - the reality of what happened wasn't the gloom and doom but instead, it was incredible to feel how it felt to know that she was doing this for herself finally.

Right now, it is incredibly arousing to know that I will not be intimate with her, at least not for a few weeks. While we did discuss skipping our "date" in October, at the same time, we have made some reservations to go up to the Boston area for the weekend - no, I didn't think of staying in the same hotel that she first slept with another man in, that would have been erotic. But at the same time, I will say that I hope the weekend and romance together may lead to us both dropping our alpha/beta roles as I know that is still something that we both share together.

But aside of that, yes, I know that I once said I could never do this. That was the same person who said he could never use condoms - and yet, there I was - for almost a 2 years period - I thoroughly enjoyed them and I enjoyed the symbolism and the way it made me feel to use them and to cede her body to him. She knew that it turned me on and she always made me feel okay about it and accepting of it.

What I can't explain other than to say that deep inside I need this. I can't explain why - I know that I am literally turning her into, mentally for me, that ********** in the fraternity who slept with all the other guys except me. My only thought here is that I think I want to feel that she isn't mine and then for, perhaps, for me to reclaim her and seduce her back? I can't say that this thought too hasn't crossed my mind at times when I think of how I want to feel at times. But is she really wanting this for this same reason? Or has she found her own desire and is she enjoying it in her own way? From what we've talked about - it seems that however things have worked, that as many people have said that we fit together, perhaps this is our way of fitting together and giving each other what they want?

All I know is that since our talks - that she's continued to point out that I shouldn't fight it and that she wants the same for me - so honestly, it just feels right to say okay. Whether Paul has some sort of grand scheme to steal her away from me, I doubt that. I have checked her phone and text messages and there are a few in the day or two before they get together but at the same time, many times 2 or 3 days will go by - at least from what I can see. I do not check her Email so perhaps they share more there? Either way, if he is guiding her, then he's doing well by me too so again, as she says, why fight it.

Do I want to give up intercourse or any sexual intimacy with her - no I don't want to - but at the same time the arousal I feel at doing so far outweighs any concerns at this point. As I said, I can't find the words to explain how I feel to see her in her panties and know that what lies beneath them isn't for me right now. Yes, it means a lot of masturbation - but there too, she's surely making it good and better and better for me so whether others view the changes to our October decisions as a problem, I see them as things we are deciding together and that maybe for a change, I am simply feeling less stressed too. When I mentioned it feeling easier right now watching from the doorway instead of being with her she smiled and said "whatever is better for you honey" and it wasn't said smugly, it was said with love and concern.

I feel strangely liberated right now - it feels surreal but at the same time, I don't want to do anything to change things yet. She has this contentment about her that is just so beautiful and pleasant to be around.

 

[peakmb]

Steve,
I'm aware that I have come down hard in you in the last two posts. For inconsistency, caving in, not confronting Sue's changing standards and your Que Sera Sera general approach to the coming storm as I see it. I think I need to add a caveat now. I have said all that I have because you have consistently said you want some degree of full normal sexual relations back. Sue has said she wants her man back. Sue has further said only condom free sex is what really gets her off so that means if you are to revert to a full stable sex life with the condoms have to go.

So there is the caveat. If you are going back you are both taking an enormous phycological risk going where you are for even a short time. For six months or a year I don't think you could recover.

On the other hand, if secretly or otherwise you are finally happy to be where you are. If you believe Sue is and will be happy for you to stay there or even progress further then my problem goes away. You're fine. Carry on. As Squirmy has said all relationships can develop problems but it may not be sex that does it for you if this is what you both want.

Your choice.

 

[raksdeer]

See STB, we only know Sue through your narrative and it's been too many times when she had promised something and done or manipulate you into doing something else. It's not that you can't review or revise the things, most definitely you can, but it also demonstrates that your communication is not as honest and as open as you perceive it to be.

Trust is based on integrity - when the intent and content of communication is same. When a person says something and then does something else, I wouldn't trust the next sentence out of them. But, you live with Sue and you know her better than anybody of us. It's just that YOUR narrative paints her as a manipulative wife who doesn't means what she says.

 

[peakmb]

Steve,
I was writing my post above as you were actually posting yours so what you just said I didn't react to. I can see you just want to carry on. I can see that Sue does so too. Reading it two things struck me. One is that you are starting to sound almost like an addict. Justifying your usage even though you know it might be creating harm and unable to accept a problem may exist. Two is that in a sub dom relationship in many ways it is actually the sub that sets the limits. Sue may not know this and is pushing blindly. You seem addicted and are simply accepting it. There needs to be some limits agreed and stuck to in your power exchange. The damage that can occur is in fact legally defined as abuse. It remains abuse even if both parties don't see it that way.

 

[Curt Bruch]

I think that Pnisnvnh is very close to the truth, but in fact I think that Steve and Sue are mutually enforcing their directions with the "it's what you wanted" phrase which seems to push them both a bit further along the path.

It's almost as if they have been (unknowingly) conditioning / training themselves - Steve to be more beta and Sue to be more alpha and to make Steve more beta.

I'll echo some of what Curt Brunch said, be careful because if this conditioning continues for another six months you may not be able to get out of it without professional help and I mean both Steve and Sue.
Some of the angst and fear that you are feeling is your sub-conscious trying to warn you.

At the moment Steve could probably "regrow a set" and go back to being an alpha but by next spring I doubt that it'll be possible.

What you do is of course up to you, all I'll say is be aware of what you are truly doing to yourselves and be careful.

btw: I might be good enough to eat but the name is "bruch" not "brunch"!

 

[tegelad]

Thanks STB that makes sense ... my suggestion to you (and you can toss it aside) .... I would only masterbate in her presence until your "take" her day at the end of the month. If you are going away, I would suggest that you let her go down to the hotel bar by herself and then go try to pick her up like the alpha, and then take her back to the room and show her who is the boss.

Prior to this I would have a good think and talk with her about how much of a beta you want to try to be. After the hotel date, I would then state to see if she can push your beta limits to their edge and truly do stuff that isn't comfortable with a recheck after New Years day or Spring or whatever.

I am not stating to do this ... but it could include having her tease you that you should spend time with Paul and maybe introduce them over the holidays as your new friend from work, and invite him for the holiday and having him stay in the spare bedroom you stay in ... think about the mental twist that would do. In fact, having him wear your robe might make you feel really insane mental twists while you are in bed with your wife in your bed.

My point is ... reflect back to my earlier question. Treat this as a once in a lifetime type of event and figure out how to really twist your beta angst ... reclaim her as an alpha at the end of the month, and truly try to figure out how to up your man game, also make sure to shave regularly, and maybe go hunting for boys underwear (cartoon action figure etc ... so you can show your place.

Good look and happy angst hunting!

 

[SquirmingSub]

Steve - Hopefully you will have an enjoyable and or informative evening.

 

[SoonToBe]

I can only say that in the time since Monday night and the revelations of last weekend, that things have only gotten easier and more relaxed with Sue as I guess she too is feeling the difference in my feelings and response. Last night we talked quite openly about last weekend with Paul here - she asked me what did and didn't work for me and I was honest in answering her. I told her that it had gone very well from how I felt and that I appreciated her sense of restraint when they were in the den. She asked me if I was going to be okay with a repeat for this coming weekend as she had emailed Paul and he'd agreed that he'd love to see her and spent the night again. I told her that I would be okay with it and I reminded her that I'd certainly enjoyed myself too. She smiled and said she appreciated my honesty and my newfound sense of trying to not get all worked up and over-thinking everything.

It led to me asking her about why she's "starting so slowly" and she smiled and said that she wants to feel herself wanting him more and to not just push them together just for the sake of making things go faster. I looked at her and she said she enjoyed how she felt by the end of the week when she admitted she was "wanting him" and that she was enjoying already thinking about this coming weekend. She also told me that as soon as the weather turns colder and Paul's golfing comes to an end, that she also felt that she would be ready for and wanting 2 nights in a row with him and we talked about how I'd feel about that at our house. I told her honestly that I would rather she started that at his place, to spend 2 nights in a row with him first there and to then do it at our house. She didn't ask much more except to confirm that I thought I would be more comfortable that way and I told her that just as she wanted to start slowly, that I was appreciating that too. But she did smile when I told her that I did want them to be here at our house eventually, just not right away.

She felt she could tell me that by the end of the week, knowing she'll be with him for the whole night, that she told me she can feel herself getting more and more turned on and horny and that she loved feeling that again this week as she did last week. She giggled and told me that she surprised herself at "just how wet my panties can get some times" and then she giggled again and said that she liked that she could feel more at ease talking with me about all of this. I told her that it felt weird but arousing to talk with her like this and I admitted that for now, I wanted her to just want him that way. She smiled, held my hands and told me she loved me and again that she was going to make it good for me too.

The only thing I can add right now is that she let me watch her dressing this morning and she told me that I'll get to see her "like this" as she turned around in front of me in this light green bra and panty-set - that I'll get to see her like that later tonight. It was incredibly arousing to hear her say that I'd see her in her panties and bra but likely not naked or to see any more of her. I cannot express how it turns me on to see her acting like this.

I know I've probably ignored everyone's concerns or criticisms and the naysayers are going to continue down the conspiracy-theory lane. I'll say it again, I've come to accept it myself that it's okay that this turns me on for right now - whether it changes in the future or morphs or develops or fades - unsure. But for right now - as i was reminded this morning as she pulled her panties on in front of me - I am so turned on that that special place between her legs is only for her boyfriend right now. It still really hasn't sunken in yet - that I'm not going to get to penetrate her - and even when it does, I somehow feel it's not going to be the big shock that I thought it might be. I can only describe it not as an addiction as Peak said, but as something that's evolved and come to the surface because of what we have shared and how we've shared it. That her vagina is only for Paul right now is a huge turn-on for me - the knowledge that it's off-limits for me, at least right now, is very intoxicating. But she's right - simply relaxing about it and not going with the gloomy thoughts - and just enjoying it for the sake of enjoying it - it's made it easier between us.

That plus I had to admit to her again that it gave me such a wave of pleasure when I watched them orgasm almost together last weekend. She smiled at me saying that to her and said she loved that I was so aroused by it and that she loved that I was the source of that arousal.

Anyway - gotta run - she's due home soon and I know she's said she's already planned something "fun for you" later on tonight.

 

[peakmb]

Have a good night Steve. These are not the days to be concerned. In the famous quote,
Eat, drink and be merry,.....

 

[SquirmingSub]

Steve - As always thank you for the post

 

[tegelad]

Play, enjoy, love (well maybe not all parts of it) ... but have no regrets. Whatever you do keep letting her lead. If she is comfortable with two nights at home let her have it .... you are her friend. Thanks as always for sharing it is unbelievable fantastic what you share and we all do appreciate it.