Thanks, KS, this is full of insight. My response is really long, and I hope anyone who finds it boring will skip it (and if you, KS, find it boring, let me know and I'll abbreviate future posts.)
One question before I go into the point-by-point: I know KA week was really your ultimate fantasy. It couldn't have been more exciting for you.
Was it Min-Ju's ultimate fantasy? Leaving aside all self-doubt and self-judging, was it the maximum possible turn-on for her? If not, what would be?
At some time you should take on the dominant alpha male role. You should be all things to your wife, including being alpha. I suggest you be dominant on different occasions in two different ways. One as a dominant lover doing what you know is best for her, giving her what she didn't fully understand she wanted or was afraid to ask for. Another as a dominant alpha taking and demanding, in a loving way, what you want; she giving you your pleasures.
Well, yes and no. This is an important point. She likes being dominated during sex, yes. This is something we've both known from the very beginning. But she doesn't like dominant men -- not as partners. Or more specifically, she doesn't like specific kinds of dominant men, the kind she's had to deal with and struggle against much of her life. So she likes when I am dominate during sex sometimes, and I am. But what she most likes in me and what most drew us together is that I can be gentle and very supportive. Both work at the same time, but it's not always an easy balance. It's a contradiction. And it's one that she is becoming more aware of, and that I am becoming more aware of.
The Korean artist made her feel things sexually that she needs, but she also resents a lot of things about me. (Which helps me feel a lot better -- they are the same things I resent about him.) Recall that part of her was ready to see him gone, even as she invited him to stay.
It's hard for me to take up that kind of role for her without also triggering some of her negative feelings, as we have been discovering.
After a few edits, I think I've figured out what I want to say. I wonder if you're not exaggerating some of the psychological issues because you're looking for an excuse for both of you to do more cuckolding. "I just can't give her what KA can" and "she just can't give me what she gave KA" for vague reasons.
You don't need an excuse. It's great if she can get something from other guys that she can't get from you, if you genuinely can't do it (e.g., your cock is just too tiny or you don't have a hairy butt or whatever). And mutually exciting denial games, some or even most of the time, are really exciting. But, if the two of you like cuckolding, you can just do it because you WANT to. You don't need a justification, or for it to be necessary.
The rest REALLY makes sense to me. Sexual desires don't necessarily follow ideology. Many people have strong sexual urges that they hate (and that includes people with criminal preferences). It makes sense that Min-Ju could, on the one hand, be a feminist, want to be respected by men, and want a loving, gentle supportive partner. Inconveniently, she finds dominant self-centered, possibly Korean, men to be a huge turn on.
HOWEVER, you've both been playing roles during KA week, for sexual reasons, that don't represent who you really are. So, it might be that, with time and the right approach, you can switch into the dominant role (while she switches into the submissive breeder slut, or whatever) and have a great time in bed. When you sense that she's in the mood, of course. When you're done, you both take off your masks and go back to being yourselves.
She has CERTAINLY been playing roles. I can't believe that she can't fuck you just as well as she fucked KA, especially if you catch her in the right mood and play your cards right. I just don't believe that "existential loneliness" is going to be a lasting problem.
She is able to be cruel or play "Bitchy Min-Ju" to fulfill your fantasies. Those are clearly not "her", although she must have a little bit of that she can tap into when required. And it works great on you, even though you hate cruel bitches and you want her to be loving, gentle, and you're comfortable making most of the family decisions in real life.
And you can also have loving gentle supportive sex when you feel like it -- even if it's not as incredibly hot as when you're role-playing. It will, of course, still be great.
And, as I said in a super-taunt a little while ago, if you find REALLY can't provide a KA-like experience for her in spite of your best efforts, it will hurt you in the way you like most. In fact, that seems to be where you're headed if you continue with re-enactments.
One thing I hate about a lot of hotwife/cuckold stories on the internet, true or fiction, is when they pretend the whole activity is just good clean recreation. Maybe it is for some of them, and that's great. But the activity deliberately wanders into an emotional minefield, which doesn't come through in a lot of things I read. The other thing I hate is when the man is purely focused on his image of the woman as some sort of porn actress creating performance art for him, without real insight into her feelings. You are avoiding these traps.
I'm glad you think so. Things have been a little messy since he left. Not bad, but... like we've been put through an emotional mangle. There are days she is withdrawn and quiet. And certain parts she doesn't like to talk about. We've been communicating a lot, but we also have to give ourselves time.
I'm not saying you guys don't have/won't have problems, maybe even bad ones. But I am saying that your narrative is VERY concerned with understanding her as well as yourself, and you are willing to face the psychological conflicts and problems that come with the territory. That's what makes it so compelling for me.
The two of you did put yourselves through an emotional mangle -- knowingly. It really will take processing. I REALLY hope she doesn't have an emotional time bomb ticking away that you don't know about. From your posts, I'm pretty sure you (KS) will be able to deal with it all, eventually.
And, beyond the difficult questions, there's sorting through what was hot, what made it hot, what didn't work, etc. so you understand your psychological erogenous zones better. That part could be really fun, and I hope you're both enjoying that a lot, and that we're just focusing on the more difficult parts of the process now.
THAT's a lot of confusion in a few words! Am I misunderstanding, or are pushing you away and making sure you don't abandon her opposites? Why would she trying to push you away, or think she is trying to do that?
Nope, you're not misunderstanding; they are opposites. It doesn't make sense, as she is the first to say. You could say it's a kind of unconscious test -- the more she pushes me away and I stay, the more she trusts I will stay -- but that's putting to much too neatly. I don't understand it. Neither does she.
My view is that people often really can't explain why they do things. They do them, and their "reasons" are post-facto rationalizations for what they did which may not have anything to do with the real causes.
In this scenario, she probably did exactly what you described as a fantasy at a past point. Her planning and execution was brilliant -- it's hard to imagine something being hotter for you, and, I hope, her. And part of that was that you would hear her sincerely having a peak sexual experience -- something hotter than you've ever given her -- and she succeeded at that. You said in your post that it was the most erotic experience you've ever had in your life.
So, she was anxious that it COULD push you away, but she had to take that risk to give you both the experience that you wanted.
So, maybe she remembers what she did and is asking herself "How could I actually have done that if I really love him?" and, thus, the "pushing away". But, ultimately, she did it to give you both an incredible experience.
I'm sure you've told her it was the most erotic experience of your life, repeatedly. She was wildly successful at creating the hottest possible experience for you, and she should be proud and know that you're very grateful.
For the second point, if she feels that you won't love her unless she plays cuckolding sex games, you REALLY need to understand that -- it might mean that you need to stop (sadly for us).
No, she doesn't feel that way. (At least I really hope not!) She's baffled by why I like it so much, but she's getting something out of it, too. After all, in a lot of ways she started this. My worry, more and more, is whether this is emotionally healthy for her.
Yeah, sounds like that idea was off base.
It could be that I've come to some wrong conclusions about what happened before you got married. I assumed that you told her your fantasies, probably while fucking her, and that she integrated those and implemented them during your "honeymoon". Did she first bring up cuckolding? Or, more likely, she teased you and you reacted and it spiraled from there.
For cuckold reasons, you'd like to pretend she's driving the process, but is that really true? In an earlier post, you questioned whether the two of you really had to go without sex the whole time you were in Korea. OF COURSE NOT! And you both knew it was contrived. I assumed you had reached a tacit understanding beforehand that that would be hot for you, so that's what she did. Part of what made it hot was that you didn't discuss it then -- but she knew what you wanted, she did it, and you didn't protest, so she knew it was the right thing to do.
Here are speculations about the sudden tears. I'm just guessing, and it may be difficult for either of you to fully understand.
* Mostly, she's worried about what you felt and are feeling. You have to just tell her, repeatedly (and with appropriate diplomacy).
* It was a delayed reaction from emotions she suppressed while she was doing it with KA. Re-enacting it brought those out.
* She likes to PRETEND to be a slut, but doesn't want to BE one. She especially doesn't want you to BELIEVE that she's really a slut.
* She is torn about hurting you and exciting you, which she has to do at the same time because your a masochist.
* She is upset that she finds it exciting to behave sadistically towards you.
* She feels bad about enjoying sex with KA more than with you (if it's true).
* She feels bad about having hot KA-like sex with you instead of being more loving.
I can say with confidence her tears were not about #1. I've been clear with her about how this excites me, and she really likes that it does. But the real issue is she wasn't even thinking about me when she started crying. (Hearing that was its own kick in the gut, but that's a different matter.) She said she was in a kind of trace, mostly ******* of me.
It would be very rewarding for you if she could go into that trance (before the crying) more often, then -- if she can do it without feeling bad. You ought to get to experience the whole thing, at least a few times.
On the other hand, it wasn't #6. She very much enjoyed the sex over the weekend, but she's said that she doesn't particularly like sex with him. The difference is subtle, but important. It's not him that excites her. It's not anything special about what he is doing. Not his cock or any "magic" positions. (Well, there was one position she likes that she said was new, though I know I've done it with her several times.) No, what excites her is the situation. The taboo. What excites her is breaking out of the tight roles she's been expected to follow -- or feeling someone force her out of those rolls.
That's great (although it might make you feel insufficiently inadequate).
I hope she/you can find a way that she can "have her cake and eat it, too". She didn't like the IDEA of having sex with him. It seems that she TOTALLY liked actually fucking him!
In the best of all possible worlds, the fact that you were listening made it hugely more exciting for her. That makes it more of a partnership thing. I think that's the case -- she spent a week planning the whole scenario, so the idea must have been incredibly hot for her.
There was definitely an element of #2. A big delayed reaction. She was bottling up a lot of big, big stuff (we both were) through the weekend. In that sense, it's really a good thing it didn't go longer than it did. I worry that if it had, things may have gone genuinely south. We are moving too fast and getting a little out of control. Which is why we are both trying to stay vanilla for a while. So yes, for now at least the "enthusiastic yes" rule is dead. (We made sexy love last night with no reference to anything other than our love for each other.)
Part of the thrill of KA weekend was bottling stuff up, but a lot got bottled -- which is why we're still waiting to hear about a lot of it!
I really strongly agree with staying vanilla until you can't stand it any more -- if you get to that point, and I think you will.
No, her crying really wasn't about me. Not directly. It was about herself. After that unexpected explosion of emotion, we ended up staying awake until pretty late into the night talking. She feels like the sudden tears were about her feeling scared and alone. She knows I'm there, of course -- it's more of an existential feeling of alone. Scared about acting to wildly. And acting a slut. It's not that she's worried she is a slut or that I will think she's one. Rather, it's that she feels herself acting like that kind of woman she dislikes. So it's a sudden feeling of kind of disliking herself. Well, that's putting it much too bluntly, but I hope you see what she means. Maybe this is better: For me as a submissive, there is an element of masochism. There is an urge to feel degraded and taken advantage of. She's also a submissive. She feels similar urges. The realization I'm coming to is that these are urges I can't fill for her. Not without damaging the "magic" of how safe and protected I make her feel.
She's judging herself unnecessarily. Maybe she should just accept that she likes these things, contradictions or not, and enjoy them? Maybe part of the KA week post-mortem will be to accept some of these things (I know it is a shift and may not be easy or quick).
Second, as I've said, I don't see why you can't play the dominant role sometimes while still being your gentle supportive self. She knows in her heart who you are, but I bet it would still be as exciting. If not AS exciting as KA, fine! There are more KA's around.
There's a basic contradiction. She wants to feel used... but she *hates* feeling used.
The contradiction is similar to other contradictions that seem inherent to all this. Both of us hate women who obsess over shoes and shopping, but it's hot when she demands I buy her a pretty dress to wear for a date. We don't like traditional gender roles, but her cruel little punishments more or less enact those roles. In my ordinary sober moments, I find it silly the way men obsess over penis size, but it's arousing when she acts disappointed in my size or excited about how big he is.
She's judging herself too much. If she wants to role-play being some guy's slave, and you're down with it, why feel bad about it? She could just admit that this does it for her. No one else is hurt, and it's no one else's business, so what's the harm? Life's too short. You just need to get over the conflicts.
BEGIN TAUNTING. Do you think what you experienced before the tears was something like what KA experienced most of the many times she fucked him?
Could it be that this is just a taste of the kinds of superb sex that he got, over and over, while you were totally denied?
From her perspective, is it a taste of how much better she felt fucking him than she does with you?
Don't forget that, unlike you, she kept fucking him and they both came really hard (you heard it all). And that, for the second time that day, he shot into her pussy when she was off birth control.
END TAUNTING
Yes, every single one of these statements is true. And yes, it is excruciatingly painfully arousing that they are all true.
Yes, however she felt about it, he got this amazing sex off her, and I did not. And yes, she felt better fucking him. She has told me she did. She told me she came harder than she ever has in her life with him.
And yes, I was starting to experience this sex myself ... and it was so frustrating when she burst into tears. I'm not proud that for a brief moment my reaction was to try to keep fucking her. But here's the thing. Here is the true role of the cuckold. If she had burst into tears with him, he would have been free to roll over in bed and fall asleep. But role was to console her. And I like that role.
Argh. You're out-taunting me, to yourself. That's so fucking hot. However, I'm not sure it's real. I think you might be overplaying your beta role here. And I'm not sure you've found out from her whether it was REALLY that much hotter for her and KA, or whether she's tweaking you and you just choose to believe it because you like the idea.
Actually, I'm really conflicted about this. It's hot -- as a game. But I don't really believe that, for obscure psychological reasons, it's just impossible for her to fuck you, her husband, as well as she fucked KA. I also think it's fundamentally unjust (there's where I project my own feelings -- it would just REALLY piss me off!).
I think you should try some more re-enactments. I'm sure wants to do it for you. I'm sure she can get past a little existential loneliness.
Weirdly, I was thinking about your previous message and had a crazy thought that was so hot it made my scrotum tighten up like a walnut. Maybe she should just do it a few times, then stop. Let's forget about any idea that you can't play a dominant role or can't satisfy her like KA did. What if the two of you reached an understanding that Min-Ju would reserve her best sex for partners other than you -- artificially -- just because it turns both of you on to do it? Except for a few rare exceptions, so that you can be acutely aware of what you're missing? It would be a special, freaky kind of denial, and a special way for her to be cruel to you and for you to suffer. You could still have loving marital sex, but the really hot stuff would be for someone else. What do you think?
(I hope what I've said above makes some sense. Maybe it will come a little clearer when I finally can talk about what happened with the gallery owner. That got a little rough for her. I've tried writing about that three different times now and keep erasing everything. But I will. And in case that's too heavy for folks, after that I'll have some lighter topics: how she's teased me about getting pregnant, how she loved my little apron, and how she's been talking with SooYun lately -- a lot!)
Yes, it makes a lot of sense, but I think you may be overemphasizing the difficulties of temporarily playing an "alpha" role, because you like to pretend it's impossible. You know Min-Ju lots better than anyone else. It could be that you would be superb at it, if you put a fraction of the creativity into it that she put into creating scenarios for you.
I'm not pushing this because of my own agenda (except for the note above); I just think it might be exciting for you both.
I'm going to say the next thing confidently, even though it might be terrible advice. Take it for what it's worth, but if I hedge it will just make it boring:
I've been reading this, especially your views on Min-Ju's feelings, I've been thinking: the only problem is that she's judging herself harshly on things that no one else cares about, and that are no one else's business (except yours). She should accept her contradictions and just be herself. If she likes it when someone buys her a dress, enjoy it! Or if role-playing a bitch who demands shoes is fun for both you you, go for it! If fucking some guy that she wouldn't want as a mate and doesn't even like gets you both off big-time she should use him and enjoy it (so long as he's not being hurt)! If she wants to be used by some guy and it's hot for her, why not? As long as, in reality, she's safe and not doing something that's actually self-destructive, go for it!
I don't imagine that's something that could happen all at once, but maybe a little more of that attitude will result from more processing of KA week. Ultimately, everyone had a great time, so what's there to worry about?
(Well, except for pregnancy, which might have resulted in an unwilling participant.)
I don't think the gallery owner would be too heavy for me. I was tempted to write a speculative description myself, but, fortunately for everyone, refrained.
I'm incredibly eager to hear more.
