D
Help keep this site alive with your VIP membership and unlock exciting site features available only to our supporting members!
UPGRADE to get lifetime access to dig420's video section, the Meet Up! forums, AD FREE surfing and much, much more!
feelings the first time
- Thread starterdirtbag73
- Start date
Not Cheating...?
I think Mac has hit on something important, DirtBag. There are many of us, I expect, who say we're cuckolds when, actually, we're not. My wife of 35 years started having sex with another man only a year ago. I encouraged her to start, even sent flowers to her office the morning after her first time, and am planning to drop her off at her lover's home for their rendezvous tomorrow afternoon. I can say without fear of contradiction that she's NOT cheating on me but what other term can I use to describe who/what I am than cuckold?
If you can get her started, you'll have your eyes opened!
dc
I think Mac has hit on something important, DirtBag. There are many of us, I expect, who say we're cuckolds when, actually, we're not. My wife of 35 years started having sex with another man only a year ago. I encouraged her to start, even sent flowers to her office the morning after her first time, and am planning to drop her off at her lover's home for their rendezvous tomorrow afternoon. I can say without fear of contradiction that she's NOT cheating on me but what other term can I use to describe who/what I am than cuckold?
If you can get her started, you'll have your eyes opened!
dc
The first time I had sex with another man, he came to our house and spent the night with me in our bed while the hubby got to watch and he spent the night in the spare room. He had been my one and only for over 20 years. He doesn't remember the following week, but I do, very clearly. We fought constantly about that night. I don't think he was truly prepared for all the emotions and how he felt after I actually went through with it. I was ready to quit right then and there, but he wasn't ready to give up. As for the definitions listed by others of cuckolding, from what I have been reading here and on other sights the definition of a cuckold is a man whose wife has sex with other men. No cheating involved in the definition anymore.
Personally, I think I have just read posts from people living in a system of self-denial.
MacnFries:
So, what exactly do you hold your relationship and marriage in? Whichever way you slice it, your wife's infidelity with other men, even with your blessing and/or participation, is a betrayal at each instance of your commitment to each other in your relationship...both by you and your wife.
I thought you articulated your thoughts quite well in seeking to get your thoughts across, but I am wondering just how well they hold up to scrutiny and perhaps mild criticism. I'd be interested to know your wife's thoughts on your statements, also.
I would say that ******** one's wife to permissable 'cheating' is dangerous in its own way. What is the point of having a relationship with someone if you are not going to settle with them in all relational departments? Equally, for wives, if they are considering cheating on their spouse, surely they need to discuss the issues that have her feeling this way with the man in her life to see if it can be resolved.
For instance, betrayal is something I could never forgive...that is my issue, and thus I could never give my permission for my partner to cheat on me, if she did, our relationship would be over. There is no point in staying together when one or either partner feels the need to 'wander' elsewhere, and the issue cannot be resolved between them. You must be a much better man than I to be able to accept your wife sexing it up with another male. Such a situation hits at the very heart of maledom biology and instinct, and I do not know if women fully understand this, or whether or not they exploit it to some end.
Yet here, we are not discussing biological needs, but more psychological, and the frisson of the fantasy element. I am not a 'controlling' man, if my partner wanted to sleep with another man, she can do, but not with me in her life, for in the last analysis, she would be rejecting me for someone else...and that is unacceptable to me. I would not cheat on her, not simply because I am loyal, but above all because I love her with every fibre of my being. I want nothing from my wife that she would not give freely, intrinsically, altruistically. When we make love, we cling to each other intensely in our sweat and fluids, and we talk and we laugh, we somtimes argue and disagree, but when we look into each other's eyes we see in there commitment, satisfaction, and desire for the other. So tell me, how are you a better man than I? I see nothing in the reasons you have quoted, nor in their variability to make acceptable a wife's sexual wanderings, either known or unknown. If people want to cheat on each other, then let them first become single, and they can have all the morally accepted sex they want.
Wife_Hubby:
I commend you for your candour, but you say nothing of your own feelings. How were you able to go ahead with your cheating on your husband? How was your love for him unable to prohibit you from following through? He was obviously hurt by the action, yet nothing in your moral system (and certainly not in his) seemed to have counselled you to deter him from his fantasy.
No cheating involved in the definition? You are deluding yourselves. By all means pursue the lifestyle, but do not try convince yourselves that it isn't cheating or betrayal...it is! It makes a mockery of what you promised each other...those delectable self-commitments upon which you first based your relationship...what you have now is far removed from that.
MacnFries:
So, what exactly do you hold your relationship and marriage in? Whichever way you slice it, your wife's infidelity with other men, even with your blessing and/or participation, is a betrayal at each instance of your commitment to each other in your relationship...both by you and your wife.
I thought you articulated your thoughts quite well in seeking to get your thoughts across, but I am wondering just how well they hold up to scrutiny and perhaps mild criticism. I'd be interested to know your wife's thoughts on your statements, also.
I would say that ******** one's wife to permissable 'cheating' is dangerous in its own way. What is the point of having a relationship with someone if you are not going to settle with them in all relational departments? Equally, for wives, if they are considering cheating on their spouse, surely they need to discuss the issues that have her feeling this way with the man in her life to see if it can be resolved.
For instance, betrayal is something I could never forgive...that is my issue, and thus I could never give my permission for my partner to cheat on me, if she did, our relationship would be over. There is no point in staying together when one or either partner feels the need to 'wander' elsewhere, and the issue cannot be resolved between them. You must be a much better man than I to be able to accept your wife sexing it up with another male. Such a situation hits at the very heart of maledom biology and instinct, and I do not know if women fully understand this, or whether or not they exploit it to some end.
Yet here, we are not discussing biological needs, but more psychological, and the frisson of the fantasy element. I am not a 'controlling' man, if my partner wanted to sleep with another man, she can do, but not with me in her life, for in the last analysis, she would be rejecting me for someone else...and that is unacceptable to me. I would not cheat on her, not simply because I am loyal, but above all because I love her with every fibre of my being. I want nothing from my wife that she would not give freely, intrinsically, altruistically. When we make love, we cling to each other intensely in our sweat and fluids, and we talk and we laugh, we somtimes argue and disagree, but when we look into each other's eyes we see in there commitment, satisfaction, and desire for the other. So tell me, how are you a better man than I? I see nothing in the reasons you have quoted, nor in their variability to make acceptable a wife's sexual wanderings, either known or unknown. If people want to cheat on each other, then let them first become single, and they can have all the morally accepted sex they want.
Wife_Hubby:
I commend you for your candour, but you say nothing of your own feelings. How were you able to go ahead with your cheating on your husband? How was your love for him unable to prohibit you from following through? He was obviously hurt by the action, yet nothing in your moral system (and certainly not in his) seemed to have counselled you to deter him from his fantasy.
No cheating involved in the definition? You are deluding yourselves. By all means pursue the lifestyle, but do not try convince yourselves that it isn't cheating or betrayal...it is! It makes a mockery of what you promised each other...those delectable self-commitments upon which you first based your relationship...what you have now is far removed from that.
Susan's Slave:
Not at all. There is no moral high ground to take, there is only discussion, perhaps in a advocationary role, but it is not my place to judge anyone, ethically or morally. I never judge people, but their acts are a different matter. Due to the fact that we all impact upon each other in myriad ways, I just think it is essential that we do not do so without cognising the effects of the impacts. I could be pithy and state that it is you whom have taken the higher ground. Whoops, too late, being pithy.
There you go, you answer you own question. How redundant is that?
Not at all. There is no moral high ground to take, there is only discussion, perhaps in a advocationary role, but it is not my place to judge anyone, ethically or morally. I never judge people, but their acts are a different matter. Due to the fact that we all impact upon each other in myriad ways, I just think it is essential that we do not do so without cognising the effects of the impacts. I could be pithy and state that it is you whom have taken the higher ground. Whoops, too late, being pithy.
There you go, you answer you own question. How redundant is that?
Thanks Mac for your reply. This lifestyle presents with complex dynamics between the couples practicing it, and just as you are exploring and playing out those dynamics with your wife, I equally, am exploring it, but from a different angle, and I am unsure as to your cognition of that angle.
To some extent, an extent to which I can possibly gleam not only from the postings in this forum, which is not my only avenue of exploration of abberrated psycho-sexual lifestyles, but other sources as well, my delving into these matters find its origin in the destruction of the relationship between two very close friends of mine who simply skirted the lifestyle with devastating results.
I am not out to 'fix' anyone, nor am I seeking to prohibit anyone from following this lifestyle. No. I want to understand where the psycho-sexual spark to place oneself into the lifestyle comes from. The destruction of my friend's relationship (decades ago) left me with a profound sense of its loss, and I was not the only one (other than the couple themselves) touched and shattered by it. Following sociological research on psycho-sexual dynamics, which has improved its knowledge base and uncovered some amazing discoveries over the years, makes for some very uncomfortable and distressing reading. I can appreciate that my postings will ruffle a few feathers, and make some members uncomfortable, but I am certainly not here simply because I am amused by it all...far from it. I suppose I am the proverbial voice that shouts out..."But he is naked. He isn't wearing any clothes!", and you cannot get more alpha than that.
Certainly commendable, and to be encouraged, but ultimately, the responsibility of one's own actions rests entirely upon the shoulders of each individual. From the moment we awaken from sleep, each of us send out ripples of influence that dynamically impact upon others, as they do upon us, but most the time we are ******* of the effects of those impacts, whose consequences are felt broadly and wide, spilling out into the social environment with both positive and negative aspects.
I am not a person to allow ignorance to be a buffer against self-responsibility and consequence. I believe entirely that if a person causes or plays a part in the harm or suffering of another, then that person should be ******* to it, and undergo experiential gnosis of it. How else are we to bring about positive behavioural changes towards each other? If you were about to commit an act, ******* of its negative impact, but have its effect visited upon you in rebound, would you still go ahead and commit the act, or would you adapt it towards a positive consequence? For the survival of our species, we must each become aware of how we impact and affect others through our daily lives...it really is that important. Currently, we are ignoring these aspects for the sake of tasting hedonistic flavours.
I am tempted to break this down, but it would be unfair of me. The fact that you both began your relationship in promiscuity (and I thank you for your honesty) nails the issue right away. There's nothing of the bond of monogamy in your relationship, where love and jealousy are twinned in explosive passion to cement yourselves to each other. There may be a bond between you, but as far as I can see, it is not derivative on love, but nothing more than practical necessity (2 children?). Could you both stop living the hedonistic lifestyle you currently do, and settle down to a singular, monogamous relationship; not temporarily, but for the rest of your lives? Your answer will tell you how much 'genuine' love and commitment is involved in your relationship. I would wager that one of you couldn't?
I don't consider marriage as anything but a social tradition. What I do consider wrong, hurtful and destructive, is sex outside the bond of commitment to each other. Purely for hedonistic tastings, monogamy receives wrongful criticism, yet it remains the most stable platform by which our species perpetuates. The monogamous bond is far more rewarding and fulfilling than having many sex partners, but as you began in promiscuity, live in promiscuity, you have denied yourselves the experience of it: ergo, be under no illusion, you and your wife are bonded by nothing more than hedonism. I congratulate you both, you have been living the psycho-sexual dynamics of prehistoric man, which is some achievement by a 21st century couple.
By what other definition can it be referenced? Yet, she is not alone in this, you actively participate. You both agree to delude yourselves that it is not 'cheating', but perhaps to be persons of self-liberated enlightenment? There is a form of reductive compartmentalisation going on in your psychologies, without which, your activities would destroy you both, especially so should the compartments ever be assimilated into a singular psychological focus.
To some extent, an extent to which I can possibly gleam not only from the postings in this forum, which is not my only avenue of exploration of abberrated psycho-sexual lifestyles, but other sources as well, my delving into these matters find its origin in the destruction of the relationship between two very close friends of mine who simply skirted the lifestyle with devastating results.
I am not out to 'fix' anyone, nor am I seeking to prohibit anyone from following this lifestyle. No. I want to understand where the psycho-sexual spark to place oneself into the lifestyle comes from. The destruction of my friend's relationship (decades ago) left me with a profound sense of its loss, and I was not the only one (other than the couple themselves) touched and shattered by it. Following sociological research on psycho-sexual dynamics, which has improved its knowledge base and uncovered some amazing discoveries over the years, makes for some very uncomfortable and distressing reading. I can appreciate that my postings will ruffle a few feathers, and make some members uncomfortable, but I am certainly not here simply because I am amused by it all...far from it. I suppose I am the proverbial voice that shouts out..."But he is naked. He isn't wearing any clothes!", and you cannot get more alpha than that.
Certainly commendable, and to be encouraged, but ultimately, the responsibility of one's own actions rests entirely upon the shoulders of each individual. From the moment we awaken from sleep, each of us send out ripples of influence that dynamically impact upon others, as they do upon us, but most the time we are ******* of the effects of those impacts, whose consequences are felt broadly and wide, spilling out into the social environment with both positive and negative aspects.
I am not a person to allow ignorance to be a buffer against self-responsibility and consequence. I believe entirely that if a person causes or plays a part in the harm or suffering of another, then that person should be ******* to it, and undergo experiential gnosis of it. How else are we to bring about positive behavioural changes towards each other? If you were about to commit an act, ******* of its negative impact, but have its effect visited upon you in rebound, would you still go ahead and commit the act, or would you adapt it towards a positive consequence? For the survival of our species, we must each become aware of how we impact and affect others through our daily lives...it really is that important. Currently, we are ignoring these aspects for the sake of tasting hedonistic flavours.
I am tempted to break this down, but it would be unfair of me. The fact that you both began your relationship in promiscuity (and I thank you for your honesty) nails the issue right away. There's nothing of the bond of monogamy in your relationship, where love and jealousy are twinned in explosive passion to cement yourselves to each other. There may be a bond between you, but as far as I can see, it is not derivative on love, but nothing more than practical necessity (2 children?). Could you both stop living the hedonistic lifestyle you currently do, and settle down to a singular, monogamous relationship; not temporarily, but for the rest of your lives? Your answer will tell you how much 'genuine' love and commitment is involved in your relationship. I would wager that one of you couldn't?
I don't consider marriage as anything but a social tradition. What I do consider wrong, hurtful and destructive, is sex outside the bond of commitment to each other. Purely for hedonistic tastings, monogamy receives wrongful criticism, yet it remains the most stable platform by which our species perpetuates. The monogamous bond is far more rewarding and fulfilling than having many sex partners, but as you began in promiscuity, live in promiscuity, you have denied yourselves the experience of it: ergo, be under no illusion, you and your wife are bonded by nothing more than hedonism. I congratulate you both, you have been living the psycho-sexual dynamics of prehistoric man, which is some achievement by a 21st century couple.
By what other definition can it be referenced? Yet, she is not alone in this, you actively participate. You both agree to delude yourselves that it is not 'cheating', but perhaps to be persons of self-liberated enlightenment? There is a form of reductive compartmentalisation going on in your psychologies, without which, your activities would destroy you both, especially so should the compartments ever be assimilated into a singular psychological focus.
Hi Mac,
Great reply, and quite informative. I am tempted to take you back to your first and second sexual experience, and ask you to relate them, as I am sure you are quite aware that the origins and the circumstance of one's primary sexual experiences (concluding with orgasm) are what imprints response behaviour to future experiences, and plays a part in determining future psycho-sexual dynamics.
However, I believe I am beginning to perceive causation in the compartmentalisation of which I wrote on the earlier post to you. This separation of love from sex and sex from love hints to be the fulcrum on which you and your wife's sexual activities turn. If you were unable to separate the emotion from the activity, you would not be pursuing the lifestyle. My research into 'open marriages' also turns up this separation, as it does so for other extra-marital sexual proclivities. I also note that a small percentage of couples practicing open marriages tend to settle down into monogamous relationships later in life, the greater percentage do not survive the implosion of the relationship...and always end in divorce.
So my question to you is...why and how do you not feel jealousy? This question is more aimed at you than your wife, because as the male this natural early-warning system should be quite innate in you. In natural terms, the male invests a greater amount of emotional commitment towards his mate than she to him through the expression of that force we call 'love'. To support this, is the emotion of 'jealousy', which more often than not arises from unconscious detection in the male of his partner's behaviour when she is straying infidelously towards another mate. Love and jealousy are under normal circumstances twinned inseparably...one cannot be experienced without the other. One cannot be present without the other.
From your posts, it seems quite absent in you...you should not look upon this as a boon. It may be absent now, but it may arise later with appalling consequence. There is a scenario - only recently discovered, that allows me to portray jealousy as the emotional equivalent to the 'battle between sperm'. It highlights the natural competiton on-going between males for the securing of a lifelong breeding mate and the production of off-spring carrying his genes.
If I may, I would like to illustrate this with candour and frankness. You may or may not know this, but it has been discovered that when a female has sperm deposited in her by one mate, the sperm can last up to 4/5 days, hiding in crevices within the walls of her vagina. Now, if she were to have sex with a different mating partner a day or two later, and he deposits sperm inside her, then a battle begins between the two disparate sperm deposits.
There are two types of sperm ejaculated into the female. One is the ubiquitous 'swimmer-type' sperm, and the other is the curly-tailed type, and both are deposited at the same time. The curly-tailed type sperm seek to grab the swimmer-type sperm of the other mating partner and prevent it from reaching the egg to fertilise. When successful in attaching itself to the swimmer-type sperm, it destroys it and itself in the form of a kamikaze attack. Nature, it seems, has provided two types of sperm called 'love' and 'jealousy', and has also provided their emotional equivalents as a first line of acquisition and defence. I should think it a profound correllation if non-jealous males were ejaculating no or very low amounts of the curly-tailed type sperm? It would open up a whole new avenue in the research into human, hormonal psycho-sexual dynamics.
Jealousy in the female presents more on the loyalty of her mate towards her. If she is carrying his child, she needs him to fend for her, protect her and the child, and to help support her in child rearing. The last thing the female wants is to lose her partner's support system to some other female equally desiring a male support system. If however, the male discovers that the child is not his, that his genes have not been carried on due to some other male interloper, then the female risks losing his support entirely. The correllation of this is quite apparent in today's modern society.
As long as society remains stable and continues to endure, the female holds the upper (sexual) hand. She can decide for herself with whom she mates for pleasure and for procreation, protected by society and its laws, and use deception if necessary to achieve this. She may stay by the side of her 'beta-male' partner for the stability and loyalty he provides her with, but really, wants her child (or children) to have the genes of that 'alpha-male' over in the corner. The statistics of this occurrence are frightening reading for males. In some tribes in Africa, there is a saying by mothers..."Mama's baby, papa's maybe." The only natural defence a man has against this is his jealousy, and obviously, according to the statistics, a poor job it does, because society has neutered him, and rendered his jealous passion impotent by laws and the threat of punitive punishment (rightly so).
Yet...if society should fail and crumble, the sexual upper-hand transfers to the male...there is nothing (apart from her steady partner) to protect the female. A sobering thought I should think.
I myself am a jealous man. Not in the way of controlling, or violent or some other extreme. I believe wholly in equality and reciprocation, and if I were to be cheated by my partner, she knows it would be the instant end of us. I would simply move on...and wash my hands of her. Having sex with some one other than your partner is not an accidental occurrence, it doesn't just happen. There is always a prelude that leads up to it, a fashioning of a desire, a licking of the lips and turmoil in the loins...there is no excuse, no appeal to 'couldn't help it'.
To be continued...
Great reply, and quite informative. I am tempted to take you back to your first and second sexual experience, and ask you to relate them, as I am sure you are quite aware that the origins and the circumstance of one's primary sexual experiences (concluding with orgasm) are what imprints response behaviour to future experiences, and plays a part in determining future psycho-sexual dynamics.
However, I believe I am beginning to perceive causation in the compartmentalisation of which I wrote on the earlier post to you. This separation of love from sex and sex from love hints to be the fulcrum on which you and your wife's sexual activities turn. If you were unable to separate the emotion from the activity, you would not be pursuing the lifestyle. My research into 'open marriages' also turns up this separation, as it does so for other extra-marital sexual proclivities. I also note that a small percentage of couples practicing open marriages tend to settle down into monogamous relationships later in life, the greater percentage do not survive the implosion of the relationship...and always end in divorce.
So my question to you is...why and how do you not feel jealousy? This question is more aimed at you than your wife, because as the male this natural early-warning system should be quite innate in you. In natural terms, the male invests a greater amount of emotional commitment towards his mate than she to him through the expression of that force we call 'love'. To support this, is the emotion of 'jealousy', which more often than not arises from unconscious detection in the male of his partner's behaviour when she is straying infidelously towards another mate. Love and jealousy are under normal circumstances twinned inseparably...one cannot be experienced without the other. One cannot be present without the other.
From your posts, it seems quite absent in you...you should not look upon this as a boon. It may be absent now, but it may arise later with appalling consequence. There is a scenario - only recently discovered, that allows me to portray jealousy as the emotional equivalent to the 'battle between sperm'. It highlights the natural competiton on-going between males for the securing of a lifelong breeding mate and the production of off-spring carrying his genes.
If I may, I would like to illustrate this with candour and frankness. You may or may not know this, but it has been discovered that when a female has sperm deposited in her by one mate, the sperm can last up to 4/5 days, hiding in crevices within the walls of her vagina. Now, if she were to have sex with a different mating partner a day or two later, and he deposits sperm inside her, then a battle begins between the two disparate sperm deposits.
There are two types of sperm ejaculated into the female. One is the ubiquitous 'swimmer-type' sperm, and the other is the curly-tailed type, and both are deposited at the same time. The curly-tailed type sperm seek to grab the swimmer-type sperm of the other mating partner and prevent it from reaching the egg to fertilise. When successful in attaching itself to the swimmer-type sperm, it destroys it and itself in the form of a kamikaze attack. Nature, it seems, has provided two types of sperm called 'love' and 'jealousy', and has also provided their emotional equivalents as a first line of acquisition and defence. I should think it a profound correllation if non-jealous males were ejaculating no or very low amounts of the curly-tailed type sperm? It would open up a whole new avenue in the research into human, hormonal psycho-sexual dynamics.
Jealousy in the female presents more on the loyalty of her mate towards her. If she is carrying his child, she needs him to fend for her, protect her and the child, and to help support her in child rearing. The last thing the female wants is to lose her partner's support system to some other female equally desiring a male support system. If however, the male discovers that the child is not his, that his genes have not been carried on due to some other male interloper, then the female risks losing his support entirely. The correllation of this is quite apparent in today's modern society.
As long as society remains stable and continues to endure, the female holds the upper (sexual) hand. She can decide for herself with whom she mates for pleasure and for procreation, protected by society and its laws, and use deception if necessary to achieve this. She may stay by the side of her 'beta-male' partner for the stability and loyalty he provides her with, but really, wants her child (or children) to have the genes of that 'alpha-male' over in the corner. The statistics of this occurrence are frightening reading for males. In some tribes in Africa, there is a saying by mothers..."Mama's baby, papa's maybe." The only natural defence a man has against this is his jealousy, and obviously, according to the statistics, a poor job it does, because society has neutered him, and rendered his jealous passion impotent by laws and the threat of punitive punishment (rightly so).
Yet...if society should fail and crumble, the sexual upper-hand transfers to the male...there is nothing (apart from her steady partner) to protect the female. A sobering thought I should think.
I myself am a jealous man. Not in the way of controlling, or violent or some other extreme. I believe wholly in equality and reciprocation, and if I were to be cheated by my partner, she knows it would be the instant end of us. I would simply move on...and wash my hands of her. Having sex with some one other than your partner is not an accidental occurrence, it doesn't just happen. There is always a prelude that leads up to it, a fashioning of a desire, a licking of the lips and turmoil in the loins...there is no excuse, no appeal to 'couldn't help it'.
To be continued...
