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British love their costly welfare state

  • Thread starterWifeLuver
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WifeLuver

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Dec 13, 2006
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British love their costly welfare state

March 28, 2010
By Landon Thomas Jr.
New York Times News Service

LONDON - Britain operates one of the largest welfare states in Europe. And that, it seems, is just fine with many of the British.

Despite the worst recession since World War II, many people here show little appetite for shrinking a system that eats up half the nation's economic output, more than in Portugal, Greece or Spain - all of which are trying to push through painful cuts. Indeed, as Britain's Labor government confronts a yawning budget deficit, public-sector workers are mobilizing to head off any reductions in wages or jobs.

As a midwife for the National Health Service, Rachel Voller is one of millions in Britain who have benefited from a decade of rising public spending. Now, she wants to protect her piece of the pie.

"We work hard and struggle to make ends meet, but they are the ones that get the bonuses," Voller, 34, said Monday, as she and a group of colleagues gathered at the headquarters of the Royal Bank of Scotland here to sneer at investment bankers and pre-emptively protest salary or job cuts for health workers.

While government spending is up in many parts of the world, it is the pace at which it is growing here that really sets Britain apart. Spending has increased from 44 percent of gross domestic product in 2007 to a projected 52 percent in 2010, the largest jump among wealthy nations.

As he delivered the government's budget to Parliament on Wednesday, Britain's chancellor of the exchequer, Alistair Darling, did his best to make the case that the Labor Party was committed to halving the deficit over four years. To do so, Labor is counting on a mixture of tax increases, public sector efficiency savings and - most crucially - a recovering economy.

But with a national election looming and the electoral gap between Labor and the Conservatives narrowing, Darling offered little assurance that he would put an end to more than 10 years of Labor largess. On the contrary, he said that public spending would increase by 2 percent in real terms.

And he minced few words in emphasizing how important such investment was to strengthening the economy. "Cuts in spending would be wrong and dangerous, and to start now would be to take a huge risk with people's jobs and futures," Darling said, in a swipe at David Cameron, the Tory party leader who sat opposite him and who has focused his now-flagging campaign on sharper spending cuts to close the deficit.

Recently, the government announced that while the private sector continued to shed jobs, the National Health System added 60,000 jobs in 2009, bringing its work force to a new high, 1.62 million. The service's share of the economy has doubled since 1986.

With its national debt at a comparatively low 60 percent of GDP, Britain has been able to borrow easily to finance such spending - and the chancellor indicated Wednesday that such high levels of borrowing would continue.

Prime Minister Gordon Brown has bet his political career that voters will accept his argument that government spending has been crucial to warding off an even deeper recession. And given signs that the economy is indeed starting to recover, British voters are having second thoughts about the Tories' assertion that deeper cuts are needed.

Sensing the shift, the Tories have begun to moderate their message in recent months, and they have not said exactly what they would trim. A recent poll commissioned by the 2020 Public Services Trust concluded that 75 percent of Britons thought that efficiency savings could eliminate the need for budget cuts.

"We will not accept any cuts in pay," said David Prentis, the general secretary of Unison, Britain's largest public sector union, with a membership of 1.4 million. "That will lead to industrial action."

While protests by British Airways workers have attracted public attention, it is Unison and other public sector unions that have the most sway.

That such a broad swath of the British public seems not to be willing to accept budget cuts is bad news for the Tories, who have built their campaign on gloomy predictions regarding Britain's capacity to repay its debts.

But the numbers may be even more daunting than the Tories have said. According to Nick Silver, an independent actuary who has studied Britain's liabilities, the nation's debt burden - including pension obligations and the cost of bailing out big banks - is actually 420 percent of GDP, twice the level of Japan, the world's leading debtor.

Most of these obligations come due in the decades ahead, but for now it seems that Brown is winning the argument that slashing the deficit would just tip the economy back into recession.

That stance is conspicuous in Europe, where other nations are becoming more aggressive in cutting their spending. Andrew Lilico, an economist at Policy Exchange, a free-market-oriented policy research organization in London, disputes Brown's contention that the Labor government spent more simply because of the recession. He says that 56 percent of spending from 2007-08 to 2010-11 has been directed toward public services such as health care and education, as opposed to investment and social security.

"The government has increased spending by 125 billion pounds in three years, and most of that is unrelated to the recession," said Lilico. "That is why the deficit is so high. I don't think people are scared enough."
 
I wonder when the same shit will happen here.
 
The biggest load of progandist crap I have ever read! THis has everything to do with American politics (the debate about their health care) and the belief by many that a welfare state is not needed! Many of the facts here are used to propagate a particular political viewpoint and are misleading at best and disingenuous at worst. The article is more a reflection on the journalist's, and the poster's, political leanings then on the factual information.

The United Kingdom does not spend 52% of its GDP on the Welfare state. The most accurate figures put it at 50%, and breaks down as % of GDP as: Pensions 17%; Health 18%; Social security 15%. I have omitted education which is also complied as part of the UK welfare spending figures. If included this puts the welfare spending at 63%. Now which one of these does the journalist and poster feel are unworthy of state intervention -the poor, elderly, sick, or perhaps educating people in the UK (which can provide the skills and abilities required to increase a country's GDP)?

Economists point to two main methods of moving out of a recession, one is to spend more and the other is to cut spending. History suggests that neither are that succesful!
So, undermining a particular tenant of this journalistic piece. Namely, that spending on welfare should be decreased.

On one last note, A welfare state is a concept of government that is based on the principles of equality of opportunity, equitable distribution of wealth, and public responsibility for those unable to avail themselves of the minimal provisions for a good life. This is a must for any country that wants to call itself civilised in my view!
 
becontree2001uk said:
The biggest load of progandist crap I have ever read! THis has everything to do with American politics (the debate about their health care) and the belief by many that a welfare state is not needed! Many of the facts here are used to propagate a particular political viewpoint and are misleading at best and disingenuous at worst. The article is more a reflection on the journalist's, and the poster's, political leanings then on the factual information.

The United Kingdom does not spend 52% of its GDP on the Welfare state. The most accurate figures put it at 50%, and breaks down as % of GDP as: Pensions 17%; Health 18%; Social security 15%. I have omitted education which is also complied as part of the UK welfare spending figures. If included this puts the welfare spending at 63%. Now which one of these does the journalist and poster feel are unworthy of state intervention -the poor, elderly, sick, or perhaps educating people in the UK (which can provide the skills and abilities required to increase a country's GDP)?

Economists point to two main methods of moving out of a recession, one is to spend more and the other is to cut spending. History suggests that neither are that succesful!
So, undermining a particular tenant of this journalistic piece. Namely, that spending on welfare should be decreased.

On one last note, A welfare state is a concept of government that is based on the principles of equality of opportunity, equitable distribution of wealth, and public responsibility for those unable to avail themselves of the minimal provisions for a good life. This is a must for any country that wants to call itself civilised in my view!


Wow, statist propaganda has brainwashed you really well.
 
It's a Labour Party policy that's coming back to bite them on the arse like most of their policies.

All workers pay national insurance contributions to cover off their state pension and national health service provision. The relatively high unemployment and the increasing number of immigrants are contributing to thinning out the contributions made by the people in work but Labour made a rod for their own backs by opening the doors and lowering the walls. They haven't a clue how many people are actually in the country and have even less of a clue as to how many are taking the mickey by claiming benefits that they are not entitled to. Add to that Cherie's wonderful contribution wth her human rights work where Abu Hamza can freely preach hatred of the west on British streets while being provided for by the country he despises and you're starting to get an anti-Islamist undercurrent growing.

Anyway, back to the main topic - as beacontree says, it's a very political opinion based on a couple of politicians' statements and a nurse who wants to save her job. I think we need the nurses but there are way too many pen pushers in Whitehall who have had it cushy for far too long. Not only that but why pay London weightings when you can relocate a great many of the jobs to the south Midlands - somewhere like Milton Keynes that is on a high speed rail network and relatively cheap to base an office at, while freeing up some real estate in one of the most expensive parts of London if not the world.

Don't fear a national health service, fear hand-outs to one and all without proper means testing.
 
As a Brit, most of us think the NHS is appalling but at the same time, it's nice to know if we end up in a car crash, we won't be left to die because we don't have health insurance.
 
Most of us think the NHS is appalling? Makan speak for yourself and may be leave it at that!
The sad fact is that both Conservatives and Labour have done the utmost to cripple the NHS for their last successive terms in turn. Conservatives introduced a 'internal market' and burdened the NHS with a new extra layer of management (so much for cutting bureaucracy) New Labour (Labour) continued that crippling effect for the first 10 years BUT what they also continued to do is give the NHS money with one hand and expect almost half of it back in 'efficiency savings' - So appearing to increase spending whilst in reality doing nothing extra (THIS return is still going on and no doubt will increase if and when Labour or Conservatives win at this election) APART from finding money to give GPs a huge pay rise as well as the too many managers and directors. (Directors were introduced under Conservatives to every single section of the NHS - so that rather than large Authority control - each section now had governance from x no. of - extra well paid directors.
These facts are not geneerally known by the public - only someone with extensive inside knowledge has the history of the organisation in mind and its continual running down under both Conservative and then Labour.
 
I pay taxes and have not been sick in over a decade. lucky me.
I got no problem with paying for other people.

stay in america and watch your fellow humans rot when they get sick
 
ukblack said:
I got no problem with paying for other people.
Fine, make charitable contributions when you can. Just don't put a gun to my head and say I have to pay for other people or face a prison term.
 
National insurance contributions should be cut following the deterioration of peripheral facilities in the last 13 years; no GPs on call, no GP early starts or late finishes to allow those of us that work to get in to see them without taking time off, very few NHS dentists about that have room for example.

The NHS, when not hamstrung by regulations, red tape and league tables, can be a wonderful organisation. My father-in-law has cancer and they provide him with a fantastic service; he has worked all his life and the amount he has paid in NI contributions would not have covered the cost of his treatments.

Too many sickies and spongers about these days unfortunately.
 
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nonaming said:
Fine, make charitable contributions when you can. Just don't put a gun to my head and say I have to pay for other people or face a prison term.

Great idea, No-one has to pay anything if they don't want to. Goodbye police, goodbye military, goodbye fire service, goodbye courts, goodbye roads, goodbye mint, goodbye public works.

Now lets all barter with shiny rocks then bash each other's heads with them while civilisation crumbles around us...
 
nonaming said:
Fine, make charitable contributions when you can. Just don't put a gun to my head and say I have to pay for other people or face a prison term.

Heathcare is expensive everywhere and no system is perfect period, stop over simpifying things and trying to scare people......(noname) is not saying for you to fully support someone else, you already paid for the police to protect other people and the fire dept to save other peoples lives/property,,,,,its just not called" socialism", by the way we already have and enjoy(love) some socialized heathcare, your politican just have to wilded you up to it yet.
 
Makkan said:
As a Brit, most of us think the NHS is appalling but at the same time, it's nice to know if we end up in a car crash, we won't be left to die because we don't have health insurance.

Nonsense most of us don't think that at all. The fact that none of the main political parties is daring to suggest they may cut spending there underlines the affection in which it is held.

Yes its a big unwieldy bureaucracy. Show me the big organisation that isn't. But it is still a remarkable thing that we can still get healthcare free at the point of delivery.

And finally will you fucking Americans have your own arguments about your healthcare without constantly looking over our fence and criticising what we do. Considering the basket case of a medical system you have over there you are the last fucking country to be criticising anybody.

Cubans may feel free to criticise. They look after their sick.
 
Brits need to embrace some costly orthodontists
 
toni said:
Brits need to embrace some costly orthodontists

lol I'm amazed that you managed to pull your face out of the refrigerator for long enough to think that one up
 
The USA has a great fear of government responsibility for public utilities and healthcare. They say that all of these things are badly run if controlled by the government, and that the private sector could do a better job. That is obviously untrue. Healthcare in the USA is much worse than in the UK and other countries that have government run healthcare. I have to agree that the people in the USA tend to be heavily propagandized. You may not know it because most haven't travelled enough to get a comparison. But I see the rich people there control the government far more than the UK, Canada, France, Germany, etc. They control the media and have essentially been brainwashing people to believe what the rich want them to believe. It reminds me of the government control of people when I lived in China for 2 years. It isn't quite as overt, but the Chinese ordinary people have learned to read between the lines much more than the Yanks.

Other developed countries are also less than imperfect, but the Parliamentary system would gotten rid of George W, for instance in short order. The presidential system doesn't have many checks and balances comparatively. And the newspapers and news television in the USA is very controlled and self-censored. You would be better to get your news from other countries rather than rely on domestic sources.
 
Yes, socialized medicine is the way to go. Why than does the USA have the best healthcare in the world, if you can afford it. Why do people come from all over the world to get treated here? I was working in canada a few years ago. My bosses wife got sick, and he sent her to the mayo clinic. He said he could'nt wait. Simply put, if you have the money, america is the first choice for medicine. Is that right, no, but niether is socialist medicine. We need to find something inbetween. Yes, we all know europe is floating towards full socialism. Is that right? I hope so, for them and me. I work there a lot and hope to come back to live there eventually.
 
I have heard that UK tradesmen take 2 hours for lunch a lot more often than they should, so the costs of building or renovating houses is very costly and done at a slowcoach pace.

Someone needs to crack the whip throughout England, factory workers are the only ones who know how to put in a decent day's effort. A honest day's work would get England out of debt in two years........but I can't see it happening any day soon.
 

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